The Mormon mean streak isn’t a bug, it’s a feature

The Mormons, God bless their hateful bitter souls, have come up with a new and improved way to undercut the civil rights of gay people.

You see, the Mormon didn’t have a PR problem because they’re always on the side of hatred and bigotry (their longtime intolerance towards women and blacks comes to mind).  No.  The problem is that the Mormons were too brazen in their hate and intolerance.

So all they need do is find a kinder and gentler way to stick the knife in the back of gays and their civil rights, and maybe everyone can go back to not really caring about Mormons either way.

Sadly, for the Mormons and their plummeting public image, civil rights don’t really work that way.  Finding a more stealthful way to dehumanize gays and lesbians isn’t really “better” for anyone but the one doing the victimizing.


The latest brilliant idea from the Mormons is to supposedly not take a position on gay marriage in Hawaii, but rather to urge Mormons in the state to follow the teaching of a specific church document that – what? – is against gay marriage.

So they basically told their parishioners to help stop gay marriage in the state.  Again.  The Mormons, you see, have meddled in Hawaii before (just like they meddled in California, and Alaska, and Nebraska, and…).  They were instrumental in helping ban block gay marriage in the state during the 1990s.

So now the Mormons are meddling in Hawaii again.  Nice way to prove you’re not longer hateful bigots.  (The Mormons, you might recall, single-handedly got Prop 8 passed in California, ripping the civil rights away from potentially millions of gay couples until a US Supreme Court decision earlier this year effectively killed Prop 8 once and for all.)

In addition to their now-coded opposition to gay marriage, the Mormons also are asking their members to push for a religious exemption that would permit anyone in the state to refuse to assist, or celebrate in, a gay marriage.  That means not only state officials could refuse to marry you (or even process your papers), but employers could possibly refuse to recognize gay employees are married, hospitals could turn your gay husband away, and all sorts of fun ways in which private individuals statewide could refuse to “celebrate” your marriage.

So basically the Mormons are: A) telling their followers to oppose gay marriage in the state; and B) if the state passes marriage equality anyway, the Mormons want a provision that basically says your marriage doesn’t count if someone – anyone – doesn’t want it to count.

You know, I never really had much of an opinion on Mormons either way.  I knew some nice Mormons during debate camp when I was in high school, and actually dated a Mormon (though perhaps he was an “ex”- Mormon) for a short while back in the 1990s.  But the Mormons I met always seemed like nice people.

Now I find the religion absolutely, aggressively, and persistently hateful.

The thing is, you can only beat the cr*p out of someone for so long before they conclude that your mean streak isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.

PS Leave Anne Frank the-f-alone.

Follow me on Twitter: @aravosis | @americablog | @americabloggay | Facebook | Instagram | Google+ | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the Executive Editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown; and has worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, the United Nations Development Programme, and as a stringer for the Economist. He is a frequent TV pundit, having appeared on the O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline, AM Joy & Reliable Sources, among others. John lives in Washington, DC. .

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287 Responses to “The Mormon mean streak isn’t a bug, it’s a feature”

  1. Queer Supremacist says:

    Sociopaths also seem nice on the surface when you first meet them.

  2. Queer Supremacist says:

    Anyone who doesn’t hate this death cult is an asshole.

  3. Namakaokona says:

    Anne Frank is not any Mormon’s ancestor.

  4. Ninong says:

    This is crap! You are promoting hate based on ignorance towards Mormons.

  5. Thomas says:

    We all knew some idiot was going to say this. Standard right-wing boilerplate “I know you are but what am I?” crap. If someone criticizes intolerance then THEY’RE the intolerant one, nyaa nyaa nyaa! Pathetic.

  6. olandp says:

    Anyone who believes the “revelations” of Joseph Smith is a dupe. The very basis of his “faith” is provably false. The Native Americans were not the lost tribe Israel, they are genetically central Asian. There is no Jewish DNA at all.

  7. neroden says:

    I actually have a fondness for Socialist Realism as an art movement. But that was Lenin-era not Stalin-era. It got really creepy in the Stalin era.

  8. neroden says:

    As with most religions.

    I believe that religion should be restricted to those over 18, like prostitution, drinking, smoking, gambling, drugs, acting in pornographic movies, and other dangerous activities.

  9. neroden says:

    We have to stop that little piece of unconstitutional tax policy. It’s a loophole large enough to drive a truck through… and the Church of Scientology *has driven the truck through*, by creating a church which is run for profit, fairly openly, but taking advantage of the tax exemptions.

    Follow the First Amendment and treat churches like everyone else. If they’re for-profit, tax them as for-profits; if they’re not-for-profit private clubs (most of them) tax them as private clubs; in the rare case of churches which actually operate as charities, they can get registered as genuine charities to get those tax exemptions.

  10. neroden says:

    Well, anyone who believes in the revelations of Joseph Smith but doesn’t want to be ruled by the totalitarian successors of Brigham Young can always go join the Community of Christ — or one of the dozen other Mormon groups which split after the death of Joseph Smith.

    The Brigham Young Mormons don’t like to admit that they exist, of course.

  11. neroden says:

    This is pretty common among religions. The “Dominionists”, a very large group of right-wing evangelical Protestants, want to create a “Christian Dominion”. The Roman Catholic Church has never renounced its claim to temporal rule over the entire Earth. Et cetera.

  12. neroden says:

    Try a Hasidic area if you want to experience it. *sigh*

  13. neroden says:

    The original Mormon doctrine was all about God sending new messages whenever it is politically necessary.

    Brigham Young tried to stop that, actually, because it’s inconvenient if you’re an authoritarian control freak. The Midwestern branches of Mormonism mostly retained the “new revelations could come to anyone at any time” doctrine and as a result had quite a lot of schisms and quite a lot of doctrinal change.

  14. neroden says:

    The Mormons left New York because they couldn’t get enough recruits, and because there was *competition*. At the time, upstate New York had *dozens* of brand new religions — literally. They couldn’t get any traction. So Smith moved out west where he figured he had a better chance of getting an entire city to himself.

    They got along reasonably well with the pre-existing neighbors at first, but some things caused a lot of friction. The failure of the poorly-thought-out Mormon-backed bank really inflamed the locals.

  15. neroden says:

    Hey, I’ve studied Mormon history quite a bit.

    Joseph Smith was a pretty mellow con man, not particularly violent (just a typical guy of the period) and as cult leaders go, he actually would have been pretty decent to hang out with, from what I can tell. (And it’s not at all clear that he was a polygamist, though I wouldn’t put it past him. Even some of the polygamist successors to Smith in the Midwest seemed to be quite tolerable, though.)

    Brigham Young, on the other hand, was a complete and utter monster, a torturer, a killer, a brute. Everything I learn about him makes me more disgusted by him.

    It’s no coincidence that the Mormons who rejected Brigham Young have *all* created more tolerable churches than the ones who went off to Utah following that sadist.

  16. neroden says:

    Francis is unlikely to give the US bishops direct orders about what they say, because he doesn’t believe in the hierarchy.

    He has, however, *condemned* the practice of bishops denying communion to people. So the recent practice of right-wing bishops denying communion to people whose politics they don’t like will most likely end: any bishop who does that is going to find himself “reassigned”, if I were to guess.

    I would also expect that bishops who claim that their statements are “holy teachings” will find themselves gently and nastily rebuked by Francis. He won’t tell them to shut up. He’ll just say “That’s Bishop X’s personal opinion, not the teaching of the church” and watch the fallout.

  17. neroden says:

    Pope Francis is a canny Jesuit. Remember, the Society of Jesus has actually been banned and anathematized by the Roman Catholic Church… and it somehow managed to survive.

    If you look at his history, Pope Francis has pretty much declared war on the very concept of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, but they haven’t noticed yet.

  18. neroden says:

    If you look at Francis’s history, his core issue is not abortion, birth control, or same-sex marriage — his core issue, personally, is *breaking the power of the Curia*. He’s anti-clerical.

    God help him, as the saying goes. He really is at risk of assassination.

  19. neroden says:

    I really don’t understand why churches get special tax breaks. It’s a violation of the First Amendment, which prohibits “respecting an Establishment of Religion”.

    If a church operates as a genuine charity, then it can have tax breaks; if it doesn’t, then it should be treated like any other club or corporation.

  20. neroden says:

    Revelation is particularly disgusting.

  21. neroden says:

    The new Pope Francis is very right-wing in most of his personal views — but he may yet change the church. Why? He has a genuine history of *anti-clericalism*. In short, he doesn’t think priests have the right to tell people what to do.

    This is going to open up the floodgates in the Roman Catholic Church. Honestly, I expect the hierarchy to try to assassinate him, because he’s declared war on their privileges.

  22. neroden says:

    Religion does not *have* to be based on “faith” — however, all the Christian variants *are* based on “faith”.

    I’m OK with religion as long as it doesn’t have any “faith”, because faith denies reality, and that is unacceptable.

    This is rare. But some religions are basically “just do the rituals! we don’t care what you believe, just do the rituals!”. Those are OK as long as the rituals themselves are not dangerous.

  23. neroden says:

    Since I don’t believe in an afterlife, I’m not bothered by Mormon baptism of the dead. My grandmother, however, did believe in multiple afterlives, and wanted to make absolutely sure that she never ended up in the Mormon one — she was most insistent on keeping her name out of the Mormon database.

  24. Luigi Proud DemoCat! says:

    Yea. Forgot about them munching on Jesus body and swigging his blood.

  25. MACV says:

    On another note …. I actually went to Salt Lake City back in 1966. As a black person, I was followed everywhere by two rather obvious plain clothes officers.

    If you’re not in the Mormon Church in Utah … you’d be better off some place else. Oh, and after a while they all start to look like .. “The Boys from Brazil”. scary ….

  26. Pootsteen says:

    Why anyone would prevent a loved one from being with a sick and/or dying person in a hospital for any reason is just so awful! Even if they don’t HAVE to allow a gay partner in the hospital, why would they want to?
    When will someone sue a hospital for basic human rights violations with their stupid rules?

  27. Whitewitch says:

    Whoa whoa whoa…it offends me to think about EVER being baptized by Mormons…I am a living breathing human NOW and knowing they will do this to me is highly offensive.

  28. Whitewitch says:

    You know I have always wanted to start a Class Action Suit against them for that behavior. I have mediated on it a lot and I think I would have to have proof they did it to one of my dead ancestors which cause me emotional pain. I will find a way!!!!

  29. fletcher says:

    Hopefully no gay Bridezillas.

  30. Polterguest says:

    That’d be ridiculous, but fine except they do it to other people’s ancestors as well.

  31. Tor says:

    They’ve been erased from the 21st century bible.

  32. karmanot says:

    Read the beatitudes and get back to me.

  33. karmanot says:

    To even debate such rubbish is ridiculous.

  34. karmanot says:

    Rape is not a core tenet of Catholic theology. Cannibalism is.

  35. Mike_in_the_Tundra says:

    Well, I could see the irony if there was some. Is it hateful to state the truth. They really did pour a large amount of their resources in denying a group of people from having the same civil rights that they have, and they’re doing it again. If telling the truth is hateful, the world has big problems.

  36. Mike_in_the_Tundra says:

    Does this possibly make any sense to you? Are you giving a full explanation? How could Anne Frank be one of their ancestors?

  37. Alvaro S says:

    Does anyone else appreciate the irony in hating on Mormons for being hateful?

  38. Mickaragua says:

    Whoa whoa, let’s just take a chill pill. Baptisms for the dead don’t force anybody to do anything. Mormons believe that their dead still get to choose, and they don’t assume whether their baptisms were accepted or not. If you believe being baptized in their church is important than you’ll understand why they do it, and if you don’t believe it then you really shouldn’t care at all. They’re just trying to help their ancestors in the only way they know how.

  39. Luigi Proud DemoCat! says:

    I’m not sure the Roman Catholic Church is any less hateful. They’ve been equally aggressive in their campaign against LGBTI rights and, even worse, aggressively protect Rapist Priests.

    If hatred is a feature of the Mormon faith, bigotry and rape are core tenets of Roman Catholic theology.

  40. ComradeRutherford says:

    Speaking of the horrific spiritual sins they’ve committed on Anne Frank:

    Every knows that the Mormons own Ancestry(dot)com, right? The reason they do that is to retroactively baptize everyone on that site.

    That means YOUR ancestors have been spiritually forced to become Mormons, kicking and screaming, dragged into the circle of hell from whence Mormons sprang.

  41. KingCranky says:

    Another reason to be irate with the Mormon church…..

    You fund its religious lifestyle choice tax exemptions, tax breaks funded by, but not available to, nonbelievers.

  42. Tom Chicago says:

    I’m afraid John is right (again). This is the same strategy the pope is putting forward, the “too many rules” strategy. While we gay people may wish for a genuinely kinder and gentler way to get along with most churches, we need to remember that “kinder and gentler” was merely a cloak when it was first employed, and resulted in the same old snake oil. Likewise, until the rules both churches would clearly like to de-emphasize, or sweep under the rug, are directly confronted and explicitly changed, we end up with the same old snake oil.

  43. Mike_in_the_Tundra says:

    I agree with that. No one should have to support my belief system.

  44. Mike_in_the_Tundra says:

    There’s an expression that covers this situation. “Opinions are like a**holes. Everyone has one.” I said nothing that sounds like proselytizing, so don’t try to change my mind.

  45. Jim Olson says:

    Yeah, forgetting that it was Congregationalists from New England who were actually the larger group of missionaries. We did own up to the smallpox and influenza a number of years ago. Must be nice to have your own version of history.

  46. Jim Olson says:

    Agreed. I do not fear the lies and the demonstrable misinformation that spews forth from the Fox News Channel each and every day…I hold it in the deepest contempt. How anyone can read that news, knowing that it is utter bullshit day in and day out is beyond me. Either they truly believe it, which does frighten me, or they are merely conservative-for-pay and that is just beneath contempt.

  47. Jim Olson says:

    Yeah, no. A century and a half of oppressing everyone who wasn’t them does not get forgiven so easily. And, as they are still actively trying to restrain my rights and the rights of other LGBT people, they don’t get a pass. They’re institutionally bigots and homophobes, and they deserve to have the light shown on their bigotry and homophobia.

  48. The_Fixer says:

    Ya know, when you talk like that, reasonable people think you’re nuts and want to know how long you’ve been off of your medication.

  49. Tor says:

    It’s what they do.

  50. Tor says:

    Better yet, when our Christian religion utterly fails, we start to understand that there is no god, no savoir. I think that congregations that accept gay people and female clergy are all nice and stuff….. It’s still bogus in the end.

  51. silas1898 says:

    Religiously insane, but not totally stupid.

  52. Tor says:

    Yup, All adjectives still agree.

  53. silas1898 says:

    Betty Bowers is the best! She knows how to deal with those blaspheming Mormons.

  54. Tor says:

    Not only advocates, but anyone who accepts equal marriage rights.

  55. Tor says:

    Mormons can be the nicest people you will ever meet. However, conversion is the first thought on their mind. I had a longish personal story about that, but I think I will let it pass.

  56. Tor says:

    Same can be said for most religions. Well, I guess that’s the very definition of religion.

  57. Tor says:

    Well, of course. Mormon leadership is not Franciscans and Dominicans, but MBAs and Lawyers.

  58. UncleBucky says:

    Fear? More like mocking of Faux Noise…

    Ya trollite.

  59. EdA says:

    It’s worth reminding people, also, that an integral part of the attack by the LDS church was to encourage the Roman Catholic Church to be the public face of bigotry while staying in the background as much as possible.

  60. silas1898 says:

    That’s gotta smell really, really bad.

  61. Tothiwim says:

    Religion causes brain damage.

  62. billylost says:

    how could you ever have thought these cult members were reasonable? it’s been obvious to many of us for decades

  63. Ninong says:


  64. UncleBucky says:

    Please distinguish 1) Christian from 2) christianIST and 3) followers of Jesus….

  65. UncleBucky says:

    We should not trust that Pope. He’s trying different avatars right now to see if some of the people with discretionary income might come back and drop a few coins into the Peter’s Pence collection.

  66. UncleBucky says:

    That sweet smile is like the lure of that ugly fish at the bottom of the ocean. The little fish sees it as a morsel. And GLUMPH the big fish gobbles the little fish.

    And if you are smart enough to defy the agenda behind the sweet smile, that smile will turn into a sneer almost as ugly as that fish.

  67. UncleBucky says:

    What is a moderate Christian? Please define! ;o)

  68. Ninong says:

    Papa Ratzi scandalized the curia, even the gay cabal within the curia, when he took Bel Giorgio (sorry, Archbishop Bel Giorgio) to live with him in his newly refurbished apartment in Mater Ecclesiae, along with five Memores Domini to do all the chores and prepare all their meals. What about the Pratesi sheets?

    Conveniently, all Memores Domini take a vow of silence.

  69. MerryMarjie says:

    Anyone who expects Mormons to be rational fails to consider the origin of their “religion.” The “Kool-Aid” is passed down from generation unto generation, unto further generations, and crazy becomes normal. Of course, that just about describes all religions, being based on “faith” and “blind faith,” and all, truth and evidence being in short supply.

  70. zorbear says:

    Old chestnut pudding? Yuk!
    Needs more honey…

  71. zorbear says:

    Becca can snatch my body anytime!

  72. LanceThruster says:

    I like this one, too —

    Q:How do you keep a Mormon from drinking all your beer on a fishing trip?

    A: Take two Mormons.

  73. FLL says:

    Edit acknowledged.

  74. Ninong says:

    Yes, I’m familiar with America’s Best Christian, Mrs. Betty Bowers. Here’s her explanation of traditional Bible-based marriage and she does mention Mormons at around the 2:45 mark:

  75. karmanot says:

    Thank ya massah, can I work in the big house now? I gots a suit an all.

  76. karmanot says:

    Wonderful N. I just love it when you get into the weeds of the footnotes.

  77. karmanot says:

    It’s not fake. The magic underwear is designed to give major wedgies so that strange grimace comes off as a smile.

  78. karmanot says:

    A body snatcher Zorbie. :-0

  79. karmanot says:

    You can always tell an ascended Mormon because their magic underwear has no streaks.

  80. karmanot says:

    True, I’ve never once experienced kosher tyranny.

  81. karmanot says:

    OMG: Stand Your Mormon. That’s from where it came.

  82. karmanot says:

    But M, maybe the proof in the pudding is an old chestnut.

  83. karmanot says:

    With that old spider Pope Ratso still alive and spinning his webs in the Vatican’s back yard anything might happen.

  84. jomicur says:


  85. Stev84 says:

    Raul Labrador is a Mormon with a BYU degree by the way.

  86. karmanot says:


  87. karmanot says:

    Leggo my temple

  88. samiinh says:

    Kinda like Boner’s House of Representatives…dangerous as any fascist organization.

  89. karmanot says:

    They try to create it here on earth. The Angel Moroni said it was under the state of Kansas.

  90. samiinh says:

    Would have been a good question for Romney.

  91. samiinh says:

    It’s called the principle 132. Polygamy continues to be part of main-stream Mormonism, though not practices in the life. It’s saved for the future in heaven on your own planet. That is if you’re male. If you are female, you’ll spend eternity bouncing out babies to populate your husband’s planet, along with all the rest of his wives.

  92. zorbear says:

    What’s a “Becca Morm bot”, precious?

  93. karmanot says:


  94. karmanot says:

    Amen to that!

  95. karmanot says:

    But we love it John. It’s like a soccer game with Moroni bots!

  96. karmanot says:

    There are those of us who loath Mormons for their own good so that they may knoweth righteousness and as Boney Moroni says, knoweth yee the truth. Or something.

  97. karmanot says:

    It’s always edifying to hear from experts on ‘sloppy’ seconds.

  98. emjayay says:

    Jeeze people, it’s been aluminum foil hats for your entire lifetime, not tin. And that thing in the kitchen with the cold food in it is a refrigerator.

  99. karmanot says:

    Oh yes, where good people remain, evil thrives.

  100. emjayay says:


  101. karmanot says:

    I was soooo going there until I realized you were kidding! :-)

  102. karmanot says:

    If they could even find your tiny head, they would probably grant you mercy.

  103. karmanot says:

    “you lefties crack me up with your fear of Fox News.” Not fear Ratty—-contempt.

  104. emjayay says:

    But as is often the case God sent them a new message just when it was politically necessary.

  105. emjayay says:

    In modern society we have extended this concept to private non-governmental business as well. Woolworth’s can’t refuse to serve people of a certain skin color if it is open to the public. More recently of course we have had pharmacists refusing to sell products they think are sinful. Don’t know how that worked out eventually actually, but it’s the same thing and a bit more serious it seems to me than someone refusing to decorate someone’s cake, although even that of course was a recent issue.
    Libertarians like a certain father and son team don’t believe any of that, although they tend to lie about their actual opinions on the topic when anyone tries to pin them down.

  106. karmanot says:

    Sorry Ratty, but there are comparisons. Don’t ya know man-Morms go to a heaven with Virgins just like Muslims, while the women bake bread, clean house, and do laundry?

  107. karmanot says:

    Yep, it’s the old :”I know what you are, but what am I?” That holy saying was written in blood on a stone old Smith pulled out of his ass (er. hat.)

  108. karmanot says:

    Actually, Becca Morm bots wear waxed paper, which goes up in flames with IQ’s over 80.

  109. karmanot says:

    Our first troll. Where’s the rest of the nest?

  110. emjayay says:

    I keep saying it’s one thing to follow a guy who preached a new, for the time open and modern and somewhat revolutionary message of love and worship in a primitive oppressed society with no idea of how the world or universe worked over 20 centuries ago. It’s another to buy the stories made up by a violent polygamous con man living in a pre-modern science but post Renaissance post Enlightenment post scientific thinking literate society. Like Betty said, she doesn’t have any furniture that new.

    By the way, if you are not already familiar with America’s Best Christian Betty Bowers, her explanation of traditional Biblical marriage is a classic.

  111. Anonymous says:

    Ha! Funny, considering just last year churches in FL (which pay no tax dollars) wanted to receive them…
    Codename: Amendment Religious Freedom

  112. karmanot says:

    Ditto that big time!

  113. karmanot says:

    But they baptized them after they died, so what’s to make amends?

  114. karmanot says:

    A ninety percent tax on political contributions by religious institutions should be established.

  115. samiinh says:

    They should lose their tax exemptions. Why should we subsidize these temples of bigotry and hate?

  116. karmanot says:

    What the Morns don’t know will hurt them. There are rumors of a secret prophetic here to now unknown Gospel of Mormon that was found in a Five-Points pawn shop that says during the Rapture, all Mormons will be fried like slimy earthworms on a hell-hot asphalt. Because Mr. God on Kolob believes that owing to their righteousness they should bear the complete suffering of the world because they are special.

  117. karmanot says:


  118. karmanot says:

    “christian mythology is anti-gay, pro-slavery, anti-woman, authoritarian, and anti-democratic.” Ever read the New Testament?

  119. Anonymous says:

    With all these religious “crackdowns,” I can’t imagine how even a moderate Christian can be associated with the church anymore.

  120. karmanot says:

    Exactly! We’ve all heard the ‘loving Shepard’ BS before. This same Bishop/Pope was silent when his political masters dropped thousands of bound dissenters from planes into the sea.

  121. karmanot says:

    “the Mormons I met always seemed like nice people.” When you meet a nice Mormon John…run, run, run like hell!

  122. Ninong says:

    The only change that I see in the new Supreme Pontiff is that he’s trying to improve the public perception of his church by toning down the emphasis on the “divisive” issues. The previous Supreme Pontiff, who now styles himself His Holiness Benedict XVI, Pope Emeritus, actually made a statement once, shortly after his election, that he would be happy if the church downsized provided those remaining were hardcore believers.

    The Catholic Church is growing in Africa and South America. It is stagnant in North America and in serious decline in Europe. Towards the end of his reign, Benedict XVI was more and more outspoken in attacking “aggressive secularism” and “atheist extremism,” which he blamed for the decline in Western Civilization. Now we have Little Vlad, the new best friend forever of His Holiness Kirill I, Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia, telling us that acceptance of the gay agenda is causing the decline of Western Europe and North America. Putin accused the West of straying from “Christian values that form the basis of Western Civilization” by pursuing policies that he described as traditional identities. “Policies are being pursued that place on the same level a multi-child family and a single-sex partnership, faith in God and belief in Satan,” said the recently divorced Putin.

    What else did Valdimir Vladimirovich (I like to call him Little Vlad) have to say about Western Civilization? Well he said our obsession with political correctness and denial of “traditional identities” puts us on a “direct path to degradation and primitivization, to a deep demographic and moral crisis.” He said people in many European countries are “embarrassed and afraid
    to speak about their religious beliefs.”
    Little Vlad, in case you haven’t noticed, likes to wear a little gold cross on a chain around his neck whenever he wants to dazzle gullible born-again, former alcoholic, heads of state. He’s now a Christian himself and his new BFF is the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia. Quite a change from the days when he was a KGB lieutenant colonel and political advisor to the Mayor of Lenigrad. One thing about Little Vlad, he always knew when the time was ripe to switch sides. He resigned his KGB commission as soon as the Berlin wall came down and jumped on the Yeltsin bandwagon.

  123. zorbear says:

    Momma Bear (the family Catholic) can’t believe he’s made it this long!

  124. FLL says:

    So the Mormons are up to their old tricks in Hawaii. Guess what else is happening in Hawaii?

           Hawaii bishop urges Catholics to mobilize against same-sex marriage
           Catholic News Service, Aug. 27, 2013

    From the NCR article (link here):

    “Bishop Larry Silva of Honolulu urged Catholics across the island state to oppose same-sex marriage in an “urgent request” to pastors.

    “In a letter that was included in parish bulletins the weekend of Aug. 24-25, Silva asked Catholics to pray the rosary daily over the next several weeks, “if possible” while walking around the state Capitol block, “so that just as God tumbled down the walls of Jericho, he will be able to do so through the prayers and action of his beloved people.”

    Maybe His Papist Holiness can get up off his ass and put his money where his mouth is and tell Bishop Silva to put a cork in it.

  125. Ninong says:

    He has never proclaimed his devotion to EVERYTHING the Greek Orthodox Church teaches. He has opposed hateful religious teachings no matter the source.

  126. Ninong says:

    His biggest move to take control was removing Bertone as Secretary of State. Now he has to figure out what to do about the Vatican Bank.

  127. Ninong says:


  128. Stev84 says:

    Of course Christians are trying to turn that around as well, by claiming that passing laws against people and trying to repeal all laws that offer even a minimum of legal protection is merely “disagreement”.

  129. Ninong says:

    I think including the word ‘Mormon’ in the title of anything sends out an automatic alert to their volunteer Internet Patrol. You can also get their attention by including ‘Anne Frank’ and ‘proxy baptism,’ or ‘baptism for the dead.’

    I’m sure they thought it was cute to baptize Barack Obama’s dead mother but, gee, I wonder why they never bothered to baptize Obama’s father? Oh, that’s right, I forgot.

    They’re very keen on baptizing dead Jews. At last count, they had officially baptized Anne Frank eight times, and each time a living person was baptized by immersion on her behalf, inside a Mormon temple and approved by a local Mormon bishop.

    They have baptized thousands of Jews who died in the Holocaust. Why? Well, it’s just what they do, that’s all.

  130. GoBlue says:

    Just like William Donohue, who brays that people who disagree with the Catholic Church are displaying “anti-Catholic bigotry.” And those are people who may not disagree with the Catholic Church that much; they only disagree with the Gospel According to Donohue.

    But then, Donohue makes a very lucrative living (something like $300,000 a year) out of being offended. So he can never be just a LITTLE offended, or not offended at all, or he’s not earning his fat salary.

  131. BeccaM says:

    Yeah, well, the House GOP seems intent on trying to make that a reality.

    As the HRC commented–

    “This legislation’s real purpose is to let federal employees, contractors and grantees refuse to do their jobs or fulfill the terms of their taxpayer-funded contracts because they have a particular religious view about certain lawfully married couples — and then to sue
    the federal government for damages if they don’t get their way.”

  132. FLL says:

    It would look suspicious if Francis were to suffer an untimely death. Not that other popes haven’t been poisoned.

  133. wmforr says:

    And I never could understand why Blacks sure did hate the Klan, just for voicing their opinions in the public square.

  134. Mike_in_the_Tundra says:

    I know it seems counter intuitive, but many of us have our Christian religion very ingrained. When that happens, one finds a congregation that accepts gays, accepts women as equals, and in general believes in human rights.

  135. BeccaM says:

    As I’ve seen remarked elsewhere: “Hope he makes his own cocoa.”

  136. wmforr says:

    When my mother-in-law passed away and the daughter who had been caring for her for years was making funeral arrangements, I tried to echo Mom’s words and said, “Well, now she’s with your father.”

    My sister-in-law smiled and said, “No, Bill. She went up.”

  137. Thom Allen says:

    If Francis pushes too hard in getting the Curia to STFU re: abortion, birth control and same-sex marriage, he’s gonna need to hire some Mafia bodyguards and a few food tasters.

  138. BeccaM says:

    The orthodox Christian Churches didn’t pour millions of dollars into state-level propositions and legislation, to insert themselves into civil law and policy, to advance an anti-gay rights agenda.

    The Mormons and the Roman Catholic Church did.

  139. Thom Allen says:

    The focus here is on the Mormons, not the other sects. And how they supposedly toned down their anti-gay sentiments in public, but are now suggesting opposition to same-sex marriage again, but in a more subtle way.

  140. wmforr says:

    Okay, that was good, but you can do better.

    Won’t you do your “he’s Kenyan, but Cruz is not Canadian” act?

    Please follow it with “he takes orders directly from Stalin, Hitler, and Margaret Meade”.

    And give us the old reliable “not Adam and Steve” and perhaps “when I was doing missionary work, I didn’t even touch my fellow missionary. Not really. Not much. At least not with the lights on.”

  141. nicho says:

    And, we criticize them when they spew their hate too. Are you not paying attention? The Mormons, however, are extremely egregious. They are bilking their followers out of tens of millions of dollars to influence elections in other states.

  142. Thom Allen says:

    I think Pope Francis’ recent statement about backing off of the trinity of the abortion, contraception and gay marriage implies to some, that he’s more tolerant that the has-been pope. But, when he served as Cardinal, he was very much anti-same-sex marriage, said that gay adoptions were detrimental to the children involved. I think that this is just some PR. He sees that the church is losing membership, many Catholics selectively ignore church teachings already (contraception, abortion and others). He wants to stop the loss of members and attract new ones. Much as the Mormons suddenly toned down their hate. It’s still there, just now covered with a veneer of civility.

  143. Monoceros Forth says:

    The proof (i.e. the test) of the pudding is in the eating. (Sorry. It’s a pet peeve of mine, the “proof is in the pudding” misquote.)

  144. nicho says:

    I have nothing against Mormons. I just wouldn’t want my four sisters to marry one.

  145. Jim says:

    I don’t seem to remember the orthodox christian churche (greek or russian), evangelical christian churches, the catholic church, and the churches of jehovah’s witnesses supporting gay equality either.

    If memory serves, the greek orthodox church strongly opposes gay equality.

    It would be easier to read your criticism of the mormons if you had not proclaimed your devotion to orthodoxy. It would be easier to take you as a serious journalist if you had not proclaimed your pro-christian, pro-orthodox bias so often. It is similar to trying to take bill donahue’s ‘journalism’ seriously.

    The point that needs to be remembered is that christian mythology is anti-gay, pro-slavery, anti-woman, authoritarian, and anti-democratic. Thus, it should not be surprising that any group that adheres to christian mythology opposes gay marriage.

    Yes, the mormons are awful, but so are many orthodox, particularly in russia and in greece.

  146. wmforr says:

    Well there you are! You’re late. We thought you would show up right after the headline went up. Okay, rant away!

  147. Zorba says:

    Gay duck-call makers? Gay bounty hunters? There must be a few of those, too. ;-)

  148. nicho says:

    Even more so when you consider: “Marriage is a civil contract.” –Brigham Young

  149. Monoceros Forth says:

    I’m pretty sure that site is built up. I can’t say for sure but I still have a bit of a sense for the geography of the place (I haven’t lived there since 1999 mind you) and I seriously doubt that hillock can be natural.

    You might say, well, so it looks unnatural, but what building doesn’t? A Gothic cathedral isn’t “natural” either; it’s just as much a work of human artifice as that Mormon temple. Yet in a way the Gothic cathedral acknowledges the natural world in the way that the Mormon temple doesn’t. The world is colorful and intricate, just as the stained glass of a Gothic cathedral is intricate and colorful; the world has many creatures in it, just as the Gothic cathedral is adorned with figures not merely of saints but of demons and gargoyles. That Mormon temple, though, rejects all such connection with the world. Even the most flawless crystal of purest quartz does not look that unnatural.

  150. HolyMoly says:

    Kind of an aside here, but not totally unrelated — since we’re talking about the fake niceness of some, I think this is illustrative:

    My grandfather passed away in 2000 at age 93, and during the memorial service, the minister looked to my grandmother and said — with a smile and in a sweet, happy tone of voice — “You’re ready to go join him, aren’t you?” Of course my mother and aunt wrapped their arms around her tightly and said, “No, she’s not.” Nana said, “No, I’m not.” The minister said, “Yes, you are.” All with a smile and pleasant voice. Such a twisted mentality this minister had, all covered with a happy, “loving” facade. How could someone say something like that? Thankfully, she’s still with us today, having recently celebrated her 97th, as lucid and energetic as ever. (she had a dream about making biscuits, so she just had to make some)

    Some people simply don’t realize how obvious it is to the rest of us when they’re being fake, politicians included. Nor do they realize the emotional and, in the case of gays, blacks, etc., the civil impact it has.

  151. wmforr says:

    Oh, and they also got the Hawai’ians to stop having same-sex marriages, which had long been part of their culture.

  152. FLL says:

    Actual Church teachings probably won’t change for another 50 or 100 years. I don’t think Church teaching has yet changed on divorce (link here). The practical matter that I was speaking of is whether the Vatican, under Francis, will tell the U.S. bishops to stop making public statements about gay marriage and abortion in advance of U.S. elections. The proof is in the pudding.

  153. BeccaM says:

    Let’s see… My wife and I came back to America, to California, in the autumn of 2008, in preparation to moving back home after some years spent living abroad.

    We were planning to get a civil marriage in our (then) home state, as was legal at the time.

    Then we saw all the slanderous “won’t you think of the children?” TV commercials pushing for the passage of Prop 8. A large proportion of them were sponsored and paid for by the national Mormon Church. We saw how the polls were trending. I read how Mormons all over the country were being asked to give donations to interfere in the internal matters of the state of California and to proactively deny civil rights to gay and lesbian families. There was also no doubt the intent was to invalidate the 18,000+ marriages that took place in California over the summer.

    For this reason, we decided not to try to marry — and just to keep our Domestic Partnership — because we couldn’t deal with the heartbreak of our legal rights being put into question yet again. Due the millions of Mormon dollars and endless lies, Prop 8 passed.

    Humanity may, in general be open to the idea of gay rights, but it’s for damned sure the Mormon Church isn’t. And personally, that offends me. Not simply because you have that opinion, but because the Mormon Church insists on denying me — someone who is not and never will be a Mormon — the dignity of equal rights under the law.

    I will not tolerate intolerance. By the way, FLL is right: In many cultures, being gay or lesbian was just accepted. It wasn’t until the Christian Paulites took over that that changed and they began torturing and burning us to death.

  154. FLL says:

    Thank you for describing yet another way in which people misrepresent using your right to disagree. I always cringed when Sarah Palin said that people were trying to “muzzle” her whenever they simply disagreed with her. Only the power of government can muzzle people by fining or imprisoning them for expressing their opinions. Disagreeing with bigots is neither trying to muzzle them (with fines or imprisonment) or expressing hate toward them, as you astutely pointed out.

  155. Naja pallida says:

    That’s because they moved to the area en-masse and unseated a bunch of long-standing politicians by voting as a bloc, trying to impose their political views on the local populace that didn’t want anything to do with them. They were accused, and many imprisoned, for trying to undermine local elected governments, and impose their religious dogma. Joseph Smith himself was murdered when a mob set upon a jail where he was awaiting trial for treason against the state of Illinois, for essentially using a private militia to impose marital law to suppress criticism against him.

  156. Ninong says:

    Well, all he really said was that he didn’t think they should concentrate on the divisive issues, like gay marriage and abortion, to the exclusion of all the other teachings of the Church. He did NOT propose making a single change in their teachings, just not making such a fuss about the divisive issues all the time.

    It was translated by the local NBC TV affiliate in the Catholic-dominated part of the Deep South where I currently reside as follows: TV anchor dryly reports what the Pope said about not being so nasty to the gays, while video clip of extremely made-up drag queens parading down Bourbon Street during Mardi Gras plays on the screen. Then they bring on the local archbishop, like they always do, to respond. He says that what the Holy Father is telling us is that no matter what they may have done, we should still minister to them and try to help them. And he says it in his usual disgustingly condescending tone. “No matter what they may have done, we should still minister to them and try to help them.” Remember that because it’s exactly what they believe.

    We should be nice to the sinful gays in spite of all the disgusting sinful things they do and try to help them to reject temptation and live a chaste life in Christ. You gays are okay as long as you don’t actually *do* anything gay, because it’s the act of doing the gay that is “intrinsically disordered.”

    It’s still the same old thing, they just want to move it to the back burner for the time being.

  157. BeccaM says:

    Brilliantly put.

  158. BeccaM says:

    You can’t refute the objection to the Mormon anti-gay position on its merits…so you resort to ad hominem attacks.

  159. BeccaM says:

    You might want to untwist that tinfoil hat. It’s cutting off the blood supply to your brain.

  160. Monoceros Forth says:

    Exactly. The whole world is supposed to bow to their particular religious prejudices. They’re free to obey the laws of their religion; nobody forcing them to commit homosexual acts (or get abortions or read Harry Potter books or whatever the hell it is they imagine will make baby Jesus cry.) But that’s not enough, is it?

  161. FLL says:

    The race is on between the Mormon leadership and the Catholic hierarchy. Which will be the first to show a streak of realism and tell their clergy to STFU about gay marriage and abortion and stop trying to bully their congregations? It looks as if Pope Francis wants to take a crack at realism—not progressive thought, just realistic thought. Here are some quotes from his exclusive interview with America—The National Catholic Review (link to the full article is here). He starts off with some vaguely tolerant mumbo jumbo about gay people:

    “During the return flight from Rio de Janeiro I said that if a homosexual person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge. By saying this, I said what the catechism says.”

    But then he works his way toward the more interesting point:

    “We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.”

    Will His Papistness take this to the next level and instruct U.S. cardinals to stop sticking their big noses in civil politics? Will Francis tell his hierarchy and clergy to STFU and stop trying to intimidate their congregations in advance of U.S. elections? Stay tuned for the ongoing spectacle that is Mormon-Catholic Kabuki theater.

  162. The_Fixer says:

    What these people fail to realize is that religion is to be accommodated under the law, and not the law.

    We can’t allow civil servants to excuse themselves from a duty for practical reasons – government wouldn’t function if we did. Government is here for the common good, not just one subset of the population that has a certain set of beliefs.

    They just can’t seem to get that concept – the common good – through their skulls. Basically, it’s all about them and what they want.

  163. Ninong says:

    If we’re going to get bombarded by the Mormon Internet Patrol, let’s not leave out the good stuff. Their version of Christianity is so much more interesting that the plain version. Like Adam, who used to be the Archangel Michael in his pre-mortal life, who was forced to move from the Garden of Eden, which was in Jackson County, Missouri, to a new home in Daviess County, Missouri after he and Eve were evicted from the Garden of Eden.

    Not to worry, both Adam and Eve were forgiven of their sin through repentance, so the concept of original sin does not exist in the Mormon version of Christianity, which is probably an improvement over the other plain vanilla version. Three years prior to his death, Adam and his righteous posterity gathered in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman in present-day Daviess County, Missouri, where Adam and Eve had settled after being expelled from the Garden of Eden. At this meeting, Adam bestowed his last blessing on his descendants. Jesus Christ appeared at the meeting to bless Adam and Adam uttered prophecies, which were said to have been recorded by Enoch. Adam died when he was 930 years old.

    Should we bring up Joseph Smith’s original trade? You know, with the hat and the stones and seeing stuff?

  164. Thom Allen says:

    You read my mind. But add the “I am YOU!” and it gets even spookier.

  165. Thom Allen says:

    Amazing how Marriott is SO willing to suck up LGBTQ money and yet how they despise the owners of that money.

  166. Thom Allen says:

    ” . . . cannot understand how any public servant can be excused from any civil duty. These folks are simply nuts.” Refusing to perform the duties of their offices, based on religious beliefs (i.e. intolerance) makes me crazy, too. At the first sign of that, the civil “servant” should be removed from public office.

  167. Monoceros Forth says:

    OK, OK, so your a God-fearing, Sprite-drinking, special-underwear-wearing Mormon and like any good Sprite-drinking Mormon you think two guys holding hands (much less wanting to marry one another) is sinful and disgusting and a one-way ticket to the everlasting bonfire and all the rest of it. And you hate to see people doing it. That’s understandable, I suppose; contemptible, but understandable. But why on Earth is everyone supposed to make way for you, just because of your particular hatred?

    You may claim I suppose that being forced to deal in any way with two guys holding hands is an infringement on your religious freedom and, since religious freedom is guaranteed by the Constitution, the power of the state is bound to take your side. But the laws of this country permit a huge number of activities that, by Mormon lights, are sinful as well and must be prohibited. It’s unlawful for a Mormon to drink alcohol, for example. Should it not then be a duty of the state to prohibit you, the honest Sprite-drinking Mormon, from being exposed to the sale of alcohol? If you walk into a shop and see rows of liquor bottles is not the shop owner flaunting before you his disregard of your religious beliefs–hoping to tempt you, indeed, with the powers of advertising and salesmanship at his command, to purchase a product whose use is contrary to the laws of your religion?

    Let me remind you, the right-thinking Sprite-drinking Mormon, that all that the two guys holding hands want to do is to be able to hold hands. Really they want to be left alone to their hand-holding. The booze-selling shop owner, on the other hand, aggressively wants to market his sinful product to you. He wants you to sin because it means the sale of another bottle of Jim Beam or three-buck-chuck. Surely then, as a law-abiding Sprite-drinking Mormon, you should be more offended by the seller of drink than by the holders of hands–particularly because the seller of drink really and truly would be happy if every single citizen in the nation came through his store to buy alcohol whereas (despite whatever idiotic notions you might cherish about the “gay agenda”) the two men holding hands really don’t mind what anyone else does so long as they can still hold hands without harassment.

    But that’s not really how it works, is it? Even though your religion prohibits it you’re OK with other people getting drunk. Drinking isn’t what really matters. Sex, though, that’s a different thing. Sex is powerful in a way drink isn’t. Sex is scary. Sex is tempting in a way that the finest single-malt Scotch cannot possibly hope to equal. You feel the temptation, do you not? It’s easy to forgo booze. I mean, let’s be honest: one’s usual response to the first taste of alcohol is to gag on the stuff. The first taste of sex, on the other hand, that’s likely to be far more pleasurable. The temptation is infinitely greater, isn’t it? Any reminder of it is just reminder of the strength of the temptation.

    And that’s why the state must be there, to strengthen your will. For the human will is weak. Far better that the government should be there to prop it up. Otherwise, who knows what might happen?

  168. PeteWa says:

    nice is just the mask that the hatefully stupid wear.

  169. The_Fixer says:

    I saw a comment from one of the trolls who said he saw this on his google alert. So yes, they have assembled an army of people who are able to use computers and they leap into action whenever “The M Word” pops up anywhere on the Internet.

  170. FLL says:

    From your comment:

    “Humanity has never been so open to gays as they are now on earth.”

    That is one of the most singularly ignorant statements I’ve heard in a very long time. Before the Christian takeover around 390 C.E., Western civilization was quite tolerant and open to people, regardless of their sexuality. Don’t try to rewrite history, ignoramus.

  171. caphillprof says:

    I simply do not understand how civil marriage can be opposed on any religious grounds and cannot understand how any public servant can be excused from any civil duty. These folks are simply nuts.

  172. Drew2u says:

    shades of “I am not a witch” ?

  173. Drew2u says:

    How pitiful and insecure they are. BTW: I love the Marriott gay-travel ad that loads :p

  174. UncleBucky says:

    This site is one of their “Missions”. Mmm hm.

  175. UncleBucky says:

    Naw. It was forlorn then. IF they had to resort to “I am a Mormon” to get their points across, they had already lost, and probably made their candidate lose even more soundly.

  176. UncleBucky says:

    They are in LDS/GOPTPer party call centers. They get messages on their screen when the worms find your post… (and I DO mean “worms”…)

  177. UncleBucky says:

    A noun is not an adjective.

    It’s “Democratic” you meant to use. Were you home schooled?

  178. ArthurH says:

    Some Mormons still believe in polygamy, which all other major religions are against. Yet they have programs on cable TV in which guys with multiple lives in which they try to sell the public on tolerance for polygamists. That is hard to do on “Sister Wives” where the “husband” drives around in a Lexus and does nothing but sleep, play video games, and urge his wives to compete is cooking him his favorite pastries, while his four wives work to bring home the bacon to their piggy spouse. There are several polygamy tolerance shows on cable yet I see none on the popular cable channels showing gays in a favorable light. Surely they must be some gay rednecks, swamp dwellers, pawn shop operators, storage locker buyers and members of the Amish mafia.

  179. Dave of the Jungle says:

    That might make it look like they were actually wrong.

  180. UncleBucky says:

    Yep. Most people are polite and don’t stand against them to avoid trouble.

    Nope, like your Hawaiian proprietor, name the frame: Mormonism is Bullshit.

  181. UncleBucky says:

    Sure, that was a 19th century event.

    But 21st century Mormons still won’t apologize or make amends.

  182. Charlie says:

    In Missouri, it was legal(i.e. still on the books but not enforceable) to kill a Mormon on sight until the 1970s

  183. Ninong says:

    You guys have a martyr complex, don’t you? You even made a martyr out of Parley Parker Pratt, Mitt Romney’s great-great-grandfather, who was murdered by the estranged husband of his 12th wife. Since Pratt was a member of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, he wanted 12 wives, as all good Mormons should, right?

    Don’t confuse Mitt’s great-great-grandfather, who had 12 wives, with his great-grandfather who had only four. In fact, it was that fourth wife who is responsible for giving us the blessing of little Mitt. Mitt’s father, George Romney, was born in Mexico because his grandfather, the one with the four wives, wanted to get the heck out of Utah after they passed the anti-polygamy laws. So George Romney was considered eligible to run for President in the 1960’s because he was born of parents who were brought from Utah to Mexico by their extended family to escape the polygamy restrictions.

    Got that? It’s okay if you’re a Republican! Just remember that phrase. Because George Romney didn’t come back to the U.S. until he was brought back here by his parents at the age of six. And his parents had already lived in Mexico for a couple of decades by then. But the Mexican government always considered them to be Americans and they were never allowed to apply for Mexican citizenship. In fact, they were run out of Mexico, which is why they had to come back. By that time most of them were okay with the new one-wife restrictions.

    George Romney, born in Mexico, considered eligible to run for President. Barack Obama, born in Hawaii, not so much!

    Monmument to the martyr Parley Parker Pratt, Mitt Romney’s great-great-grandfather:

  184. JayRandal says:

    Mormons are oddball group to say anything about sexual deviancy because they once married underage girls and multiple wives. They should back off attacking Gay marriages. Besides some
    Mormons are Gay too.

  185. Oh, I forgot to mention Anne Frank. She’s there now :)

  186. Drew2u says:

    …because all they have are old people pewing it up.

  187. chris10858 says:

    I think we need to start asking Mormons if it was OK when they used to discriminate against black people due to their religious beliefs? If a person can refuse to assist a gay person cause it conflicts with their religion, then why can’t they refuse to service people of other faiths or races (if their religion forbids it)?

  188. Dave of the Jungle says:

    You’re clouding the issue with facts.

  189. Dave of the Jungle says:

    They want to control EVERYONE.

  190. The_Fixer says:

    Well, let’s analyze what you have to say here.

    First, both Malcom X and Dr. King’s approaches made a difference. But note that non-violent resistance was just that – resistance. And he did not shut up and just let racists take over the conversation. Non-violent resistance does not equal rolling over and letting someone propagate lies.

    Apparently, you have not been paying attention. The gay community has been working on public opinion within their communities. People have been discovering that, contrary to what they’ve been told, we are not what we’ve been painted to be by religious zealots who’ve been commandeering the public debate for so long.

    I hate to break it to you, but the “AVERAGE American” has indeed been coming around to the point of view that civil rights are not to be voted on, they are innate and should be legally guaranteed. Recent polls show a majority of Americans have no objection to the concept of marriage equality and support for LGBT rights is at an all-time high.

    Yes, Mormons alone are not responsible for the lack of progress of gay rights, but they certainly have a big bank account and together with other religious organizations (like the Catholic Church), have been all too happy to spend a lot of money trying to influence public opinion. They’ve been lying in the process. Not to mention trying to codify their religious beliefs. Sorry, but our government is not supposed to be a theocracy, regardless of what you may think.

    I am tired of the old canard that says we are hurting our cause by showing up in costume and are “in your face”. Does Dan Savage dress in drag when he debates various bigots? The worst you’ll see out of him is a T-shirt that may advertise a pro-gay organization. The same with other prominent gay activists. Have you looked at a TEA party demonstration? I am bewildered by their tri-corner hats and their incoherent babble. We speak with one voice that is logical and we do appeal to common sense.

    Denying people their rights in the guise of religious freedom is not legitimate. Period. You can practice your religion as you like; denying people human rights is where I draw the line.

  191. pappyvet says:

    Lunacy without the need for the moon. Coldblooded control whether you agree with them or not.
    It is just as ridiculous as saying that your church does not approve of bacon and attempting to keep people who do not believe that from eating it anyway. Total B.S. all around

  192. Ninong says:

    I thought most of you guys only worked Internet Patrol Duty on weekends? I knew including the word ‘Mormons’ in the title would send out an automatic alert.

  193. Dave of the Jungle says:

    Well said.

  194. Monoceros Forth says:

    The scariest of all, in my opinion, is religious calendar art. At that
    level, it ceases to be sterile and lifeless, it takes on a demon life of
    its own. It becomes zombie art for the zombie faithful.

    Ugh, yes. There’s a quality to that sort of religious art, the sort that you find on calendars and book covers and greeting cards from the shopping-mall Christian bookshop, that’s uncomfortably reminiscent of the propagandistic art of Nazi Germany or the Stalinist U.S.S.R.: scrubbed and shining faces, stiff and static compositions, painted in a gauzy and luminous style. Art under the control of an authoritarian ideology really does seem to converge on the same conventions.

  195. Badgerite says:

    Again. In our democracy we do not submit fundamental rights of individuals to a vote. And truth be told, if you factor out the older people, respect for marriage equality and the equal rights of LGBT people wins overwhelmingly. That is why conservatives, including the Mormons, have been so involved in trying to legislate against equal rights in this area. They have already lost the younger generation on this issue.

  196. HolyMoly says:

    How can the Muslim Brotherhood “infiltrate”? You mean like Congress has been “infiltrated” by Christians and Mormons and Jews? Every community from coast to coast has been “infiltrated” by the same, including the airwaves? And political officials saying “God this” and “God that” while in the role of public official? And let’s not forget, in a few weeks we’re about to be inundated by a full-out offensive campaign in your nearest shopping mall, complete with pagan trees and wreaths and Bing Crosby songs. Wow, we really DO have to watch out for those sneaky Muslims, don’t we?

    Funny how when a Muslim is democratically elected to public office, he is an infiltrator with a sinister agenda, which would include taking over the government. When a Christian, Mormon or Jew are elected to public office, they only want to serve their nation. It’s the same classic inanity that you find when people like Rush says something like “blacks only voted for Obama because he’s black,” but then whites voted for Romney because they thoughtfully weighed each candidate’s stance on the issues and voted accordingly. Certainly not because he’s white.

    You know (well, apparently you don’t), an overwhelming majority of Muslim-Americans love the United States and all it is supposed to stand for just the same as those of other religions. And equally true, a very miniscule minority of Christians, Jews, or Mormons are jackboot authoritarian thugs, bigots, or terrorists (Timothy McVeigh comes to mind), just as a very miniscule minority of Muslims. If you have that sort of hateful mentality, your religion has nothing at all to do with it — it’s just your mentality; any hatemonger can cherry-pick verses out of their holy book du jour and twist them out of context to fit their warped sense of how the world should be.

    Muslims also say “Allahu Akbar” when praising God for giving them good fortune, or when a close relative recovers from what could have been a fatal illness, or for food on the table or a roof over their heads….or to thank God that they weren’t physically harmed by some ignorant redneck. I’d say somewhere in the ballpark of 99.999999999999999% of all Muslims use the phrase for that reason. Like I said in the previous paragraph, the 0.00000000000001% who use the phrase as an exclamation mark at the end of their violent killing spree are doing it not because they’re Muslims, but because they have mental problems.

    Your mental problem can be spelled out quite plainly: P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A

  197. Dave of the Jungle says:

    World’s Best Christian

  198. Ninong says:

    I think the volcanoes belong to Tom Cruise and his cult.

  199. UncleBucky says:

    Betty Bowers rocks!

    Less is Mormon:

  200. Badgerite says:

    So that is where LRH got his crap from. Thanks for the info.

  201. UncleBucky says:

    The temples look more like some video game version of the castle of the Wicked Witch.

  202. Badgerite says:

    Comments below make a good point. It was the point made in the Prop 8 brief as well and it is a bedrock principle of our democracy. We don’t subject the fundamental rights of individuals to a vote.

  203. Stev84 says:

    Mormonism is basically the 19th century version of Scientology. Both because it’s obviously a scam and because they believe that every good Mormon gets to be their own god with their own planet when they die.

  204. ArthurH says:

    While attending a convention on the island of Oahu some years ago, the trade group took all attendees out to a Hawaiian show that was run by the Mormon Church. Between the Hawaiian dances, the narrator explained how the Mormons (and Mormon missionaries alone) brought religion to Hawaii and instilled Christian values in Hawaiian natives (among other things they got hula girls to wear bras; mentioned it twice in fact). The next day having lunch at beach side sandwich stand I mentioned this to the proprietor. I then leaned the word in the Hawaiian language for bullshit.

  205. UncleBucky says:

    Well, it’s that sweetness thing. If you go along with them, they act sweetly. But oppose any part of their agenda, and that sweet smile turns into sneer.

    Let the Mormons leap into a volcano. I’ll sell popcorn.

  206. UncleBucky says:

    Right on. That’s my position. If someone takes rights away from anyone who is entitled to those rights gets me angry.

  207. Ninong says:

    Well, now you did it, John. You went and used the word ‘Mormons’ in the title, plus you included the word ‘hateful.’ We’ll be bombarded by their dedicated troll patrol any minute now. Why not just throw in ‘Ann Frank’ at the same time. That has always worked like magic in the past.

    You know, when you think about it, there’s not all that much difference between the LDS position on gay marriage and the official position of the Catholic Church or most of the evangelical Protestant denominations. Even though the Mormons put up most of the money in the Prop. 8 campaign, the proposition itself was crafted by a Catholic bishop, who was later promoted by the Pope as a reward for his good work on Prop. 8.

    I had the distinct pleasure of having to sit through a brief sermon during Mass several years back while attending the wedding of a close family member. It was devoted almost entirely to the sanctity of the sacrament of Holy Matrimony and the duty of Catholics to defend it against all the attacks that were being mounted against it by [fill in the blank], with special attention given to the one man and one woman as ordained by God, blah, blah, blah. Yes, I do attend baptisms, weddings and funerals because I won’t offend family members and close friends by not attending.

    Depending on the individual bishop, and sometimes the individual parish, Catholics who attend Mass regularly are almost certain to hear something about their obligation to protect the innocent babies who are not yet born by not voting for anyone who believes murdering them is okay. And they might also hear something about defending the sanctity of marriage by not voting for anyone who would destroy marriage. And we all know which political party wants to murder unborn babies and destroy the sanctity of marriage by allowing the evil gay marriage, don’t we?

    They don’t actually come out and say vote for Dubya or vote for Grandpa McCain, they just tell you that it would be a grave sin to support murder of unborn babies. And they don’t like gay marriage at all. Maybe they would like it more if the Pope said it was okay for them to do it, too?

  208. UncleBucky says:

    Sharpen my “axe” more than likely.

    Hell’s bells.

  209. UncleBucky says:

    Bingo. There are people who are susceptible to hate speech. After all, there were people who waved “bye bye Jew” to the people being evicted from their houses and stores and loaded on trains.

    Voters did basically the same thing, and they would do what’s going on in Russia againt LGBTQQA people IF THEY FELT THEY WOULD NOT GET IN TROUBLE FOR DOING SO.

  210. UncleBucky says:

    Your advice to the “gay community” is not wanted.

  211. Badgerite says:

    Isn’t that Scientology? Seriously, when did the Mormons go the scientology route?

  212. Monoceros Forth says:

    It’s snowy white because it’s actually an iceberg and nine-tenths of it is hidden from view?

    *chuckles* I’ve thought the same about the “Mars Hill” church near to where I used to live in the Ballard neighborhood of Seattle. Above ground it doesn’t look like much, just a low, grey, nondescript building of moderate size. Yet whenever their services are on cars come flocking from miles around and take up every available spot within a few blocks to the point that all the local businesses have to put up signs that say “no church parking”. I like to think that the little grey building is perched atop a vast underground complex.

  213. UncleBucky says:

    Every voice? Those who advocate murder of mentally ill children? Those who advocate murder of seniors? Those who advocate murder of the mentally ill and criminals?

    EVERY VOICE? You would cut slack for every voice?

  214. Duwayne_Anderson says:

    Of course Mormons believe in hell. See the following links to the official LDS Internet site.

    Mormons have a different view on what hell is, but they definitely believe in the place.

  215. Monoceros Forth says:

    So we shouldn’t complain about you clowns being bigoted and hateful because there’s someone out there even more bigoted and hateful? Isn’t that “moral relativism” you’re exercising there?

  216. Drew2u says:

    Naw, isn’t it just par-for-the-course of white-washing (hurr, the temples :p) and being vehemently against any criticisms of either their legitimacy or their actions – similar to scientologists or NALTs?

    Edit: which is where I think atheism is too myopic; in the literal sense it’s about secular action without thought of the existence of a deitic force (gods, karma, etc), in practicality atheism would do well to expand on humanitarianism and not get singularly bogged down in specific details such as bus messages or statues. (I am not saying there isn’t a legitimate argument to be made about getting rid of “In God We Trust”, but as an effort of herding cats, more would do well with – say – setting up shelters, donating sums of money, etc. to make people’s lives better)

  217. Monoceros Forth says:

    Last year I figured the Mormons were cruising (hurr) all the political blogs because their man was running for President and they were keen to defend his honor, not only directly but also indirectly by advocating the Mormon faith in general (cf. last year’s “I am a Mormon” ad campaign). Back then the defensiveness was understandable. Now it just seems forlorn.

  218. UncleBucky says:

    Don’t let the virtual door slap you in the ass…. :D

  219. Drew2u says:

    “there seems to be very few stories on Mormons protesting gays.”

    How much is your mortgage on that rock you’re living under?
    (love the false equivalency, by the way. Can’t tell whether you’re a Poe, though)

  220. Badgerite says:

    Yes, every voice has a right to be heard and once I hear them I have every right to tell them they are full of crap.

  221. Dave of the Jungle says:

    Brainwashing of children is their most potent tool.

  222. UncleBucky says:


  223. UncleBucky says:

    That’s the right question, too!

  224. UncleBucky says:

    Mormons are a cult where those in power intimidate those who are not in power to either shut up and listen or go away. ;o)

  225. UncleBucky says:

    Which came first? Mormon intolerance of anyone who gets in their way of having their own planet and subjects? Or intelligent reactions to that attempt to hijack your trust…. Hahahha!

  226. Badgerite says:

    Actually, he would write an article saying “the Catholics are urging the Catholics to do something hateful”. And has. Probably not with those exact words but pretty close. You don’t need to understand ‘their church and how its structured’ to understand that what they propose violates the principle of the separation of church and state that has allowed the Mormons to not be set upon by mobs of their neighbors in the modern era.

  227. Dave of the Jungle says:

    Have I mentioned the Mountain Meadows Massacre today?

  228. UncleBucky says:

    That’s called “being sweet”. I know the Mormon sweet smile. It so quickly turns to a silent sneer when you won’t say the magic conversion prayer with them:

    Moroni 10:4-5. (Moroni was the last prophet to write in the Book of Mormon. He knew it would be brought forth at a later day, and he tells future readers how they may know of it truthfulness.)

    “And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”

    As if…

  229. Drew2u says:

    Just how much of your social security check is dedicated to purchasing tin foil? (kidding!)

  230. Drew2u says:

    Sidenote, John: how on-cue are trolls when you hit the submit button on a post about certain topics (like this one, for example), can you set your watch by it? ;)

    It seems like posts about Mormons really bring out the crazies in the comments; what other post-topics tend to do that? Certainly not income inequality! :p

    (P.S. keep up the good work, man)

  231. Dave of the Jungle says:

    Not fear of Fox News; contempt for flagrant disregard for factual truth.

  232. UncleBucky says:

    There are very few groups that “follow Jesus” (note I do not say “follow Christ”, because that is a meaningless statement) who are not as nutty as RCCers, Mormons, Scientologists, JWs, Seventh Day Adventists, etc.

    It seems to me that the groups that have as their goal a “magic ticket” to some heaven or a “magic pass” to the enlightened or elite level of liars are the ones who need the padded cells.

    And then, so people don’t jump on me, there are in each group scads of people who don’t question authority, are not curious, are not scholarly about researching their “religion” and are unwilling to buck the alpha males, who add to the problem simply by doing nothing.


  233. Ninong says:

    Wow! I see what you mean. It really does look plastic, doesn’t it? Was that site always elevated like that or did they have to build it up first before completing their structure?

    The Mormon temple in Oakland is huge, and white, and surrounded by landscaped grounds that they light up like Disneyland every Christmas season and it’s situated on an elevated spot where it can be seen for miles around, especially at night when it is very brightly lit. You can see it from either the 580 or the 880.

  234. RatPatrol1 says:

    Hilarious! Ignorance is indeed bliss, and you lefties crack me up with your fear of Fox News.
    Always, progressives are not capable of tolerating any truth. Every news outlet has got to report news as they are told or be subjected to wiretapping by BBB, (Big Brother Barack) to make certain of their loyalty. When their propaganda outlets show any signs of being unreliable, they will be mocked and scorned as FOX is for their violation of media allegiance to Obama. It is Orwellian, much like the two minutes of hate sessions in 1984. Except the hate sessions are perpetual for those who report any truth thrown down the memory hole by the administration of lies.

  235. UncleBucky says:

    Nope. Mormons are the real threat. Muslims are no threat, unless of course you put 1/6 of the world’s population (Muslims) in your rant.

    They, as I would, fight back. For thousands of years, Christians have been poking and poking Muslims. What should one do when one gets poked for centuries by book-burning, boiling-scholars-in-oil and intolerant dogmatists (Christians)?

  236. RatPatrol1 says:

    Funny, there seems to be very few stories on Mormons protesting gays. However, there are plenty of stories about the Democrat protestors from the Westboro Baptist Church.

  237. UncleBucky says:

    They WOULD be treasonous if they got enough power. The stated objective in the white horse thingee is that they would replace the US Constitution if they could.

    Right now they are laying low. But I wouldn’t put it past them if they got more power to destroy this Nation and replace its government with one of their own making.

  238. UncleBucky says:

    Works for me, Shlomo!

  239. UncleBucky says:

    Sorry. I worked for Mormons. I interacted with them. I have had missionaries come to the house. I bumped into them at airports.

    They’re nuts. All of ’em.

    Why? The ones who are nuts can’t think their way out of paper cult. The ones who might not be nuts have been scared to death to oppose the real nuts, and as a result become nuts out of denial, fear and paranoia.

    It’s a CULT It’s nuts. They are as dangerous as any fascist organization has ever been.

    Right now they are laying low. But IF THEY DO GET POWER, I wouldn’t put it past them to do horrible things or to look the other way as horrible things are done.

    Sorry? No, I’m fucking (sorry) not sorry.

  240. Stev84 says:

    The thing is that they aren’t “just following their own faith”. That would mean not getting gay-married. Instead they want to force everyone else to follow their cult’s teachings too.

  241. Bomer says:

    Oddly enough, contrary to what FOX news tells you, the Muslims are not the one trying to pass laws in this country based on their religious beliefs. That’s you guys and your other fundie Christian friends.

  242. Tonnage says:

    My intolerance? I don’t get it. My issue is with your crap writing. It’s true though, I’m not a regular on your website. It came up on my google feed. Congratulations. Although I think you wasted your opportunity.
    BTW, It’s not on my google feed anymore. I’ll leave you to your ignorant article.

  243. Blogvader says:

    Who knows, John? Maybe in another decade they’ll decide that gay people have souls!

  244. Dave of the Jungle says:

    Hey, good try.

  245. RatPatrol1 says:

    Sorry pal, seems you have Islam and Mormon mixed up. And your rants are nothing more than psychological projection.

  246. Dave of the Jungle says:

    OK. Here’s my attempt to some change hearts and minds:

    Mormons believe in a Supreme Polygamist who has a penis and lives at Star Base Kolob. They intend to become the legitimate government of the United States of America. Joseph Smith was a womanizer and a polygamist who was wanted for lese majeste. It seems he was trying to appoint himself the legitimate government already back in the 19th century. They want to control EVERYONE by setting up a MORMON THEOCRACY.

    Any questions?

  247. Badgerite says:

    I wouldn’t say treasonous. But certainly misguided.

  248. Badgerite says:

    Ok! No rational thought there,so peace-out.

  249. Shlomo Abrin says:

    Just another group of treasonous religious zealots putting religion before the Constitution.

  250. Shlomo Abrin says:

    I am openly antagonistic toward Mormons without hesitation, regret, or shame. My acquaintances often wonder at this behavior and want to know why I have to be mean to these clean-cut, polite people just following their own religious beliefs. Why can’t I just agree to disagree quietly?

    Here is my answer:

    Those soft-spoken, clean shaven white people spend billions of dollars working to stop many of my fellow citizens from exercising their reproductive freedoms and right of others to marry the person they love, regardless of gender. I don’t care if they are ‘nice’ and well-dressed. I don’t care if they are just following their faith. I don’t care that they don’t know the difference. Religious bigots need to be called out.

  251. No, the edits are helpful. So long as people don’t get snarky about it, I really do find it useful when folks point out the typos etc. ;)

  252. mirror says:

    They are actively trying to ruin the lives of myself, my friends, and my family on a personal level. How am I supposed to feel?

  253. I do hate Mormon intolerance, Mormon hate, and Mormon bigotry. The same way I hate racists, and sexists, and all other bigots. The question is why don’t you?

  254. LanceThruster says:

    They sure are fixated on naughty bits. Can’t they just worry about where they choose to park their own?

  255. What’s ironic is that you’re accusing me of being intolerant of your intolerance.

    You guys aren’t terribly good at PR, are you? Every time you attack us, we write about your attack, and then you swarm whatever site has the nerve to publicly expose your hatefulness, and what do you do? You get all hateful, again.

    I’m sorry that you’re so indignant that we exposed the fact that yet again you’re beating the crap out of yet another minority in America. It’s so hard to be you.

  256. RatPatrol1 says:

    So, even though the Muslim Brotherhood has infiltrated the Rap House and America, Mormons are a threat and sharia law is not.. Yes he did say “God bless”…like the way you’d hear them say, “allahu akbar!” before they whack your head off!

  257. I’m sorry, you seem to be confusing tenses. I said they seemed, past tense, like nice people. But now that I’ve had to deal with the actions of the Mormon leadership over and over again, I’ve learned that they’re hateful, intolerant, bigots trying to impose their hateful, intolerant and bigoted views on the rest of the country, and the world, by political force. The point, which you clearly missed, is that the Mormons have created their own PR disaster. We were a country that was basically unfamiliar with Mormons beyond “the nice young man on the corner.” Now we’ve learned that they’re kind of hateful, kind of pushy, and kind of like to force their views down your throat. And that ends up making people not like them, a lot. So feel free to share your false indignation about the fact that we’ve discovered how hateful and intolerant you are.

  258. Indigo says:

    That’s an astute observation. Vibrant art is not a velvet Jesus, let alone a velvet Elvis. The scariest of all, in my opinion, is religious calendar art. At that level, it ceases to be sterile and lifeless, it takes on a demon life of its own. It becomes zombie art for the zombie faithful. I can ignore most of that and get on with my life but when they get in my face, then I get annoyed and all too often, rude.

  259. Badgerite says:

    They appear to be taking the route of the Catholic Church in alleging that their religious freedom involves their right to practice their religion as a government official while carrying out official duties or as members of a profession that requires government license and while carrying out professional duties. And that is just absurd.

  260. Badgerite says:

    Well, he did say “God bless” their hateful, bitter souls. So he doesn’t hate the sinner, just the sin. And complaining about a non existent threat of Sharia law while arguing for your own religious beliefs to take priority is not really a convincing argument. Eh?

  261. RatPatrol1 says:

    “But the Mormons I met always seemed like nice people.”

    Uh huh, sure they were, but you had to say that after smearing all of them with your own “hateful bitter souls” remark, you being the one who’s so tolerant. If you think they’re so intolerant, just wait when the “religion of peace” takes over. Separation of church & state? HA!
    If you don’t submit, it’s separation from head for the infidels!

  262. SimmerDown says:

    And what about voters in nearly every single other state? Grind your ax against mormons all you want. You are wasting your time–Mormons did not create the public perception of the issue.

    Also, you have something in common with Mormons they also don’t believe “hell” –technically. It’s more of an impeded progression. As much as you want them in hell; or think they want you in hell; the two of you don’t believe in hell–thats funny.

  263. jomicur says:

    My fantasy is to see the Mormons, the Scientologists and the Catholics all merge into one huge religion. Think of the benefits. They could start holding their services in outsized padded cells instead of churches, which would free up a lot of valuable real estate and also create a boom in privately run lunatic asylums. There would be an enormous boom for clothing manufacturers, since people would be wearing Mormon magic underpants plus white shirts and neckties underneath their lovely silk Catholic vestments. They wouldn’t need chalices anymore, since they could carry their communion wafers in their orgone boxes. And best of all their respective lunacies would multiply each other, and no one at all would take them seriously anymore.

  264. Duwayne_Anderson says:

    Hate is when you do something bad to another person — like the Mormons did, in Prop 8, when they broke up families.

    Hate is *not* disagreeing with another person.

  265. Stev84 says:

    The Mormons are a totalitarian cult with its own private theocracy in Utah. Nothing happens in Mormonland without authorization from the top. Both the Hawaii campaign in the 90s and Prop8 were directly controlled by Mormon HQ in Salt Lake City. That has been well documented.

  266. Stev84 says:

    The Mormons may seem nice on a personal level, because they always smile and pretend to be nice. That’s all part of their cult’s teachings. But it’s all fake. They simply don’t show their true feelings.

  267. olandp says:

    A large portion is underground… What do you suppose that means?

  268. olandp says:

    So he should have inserted the word “Church” in that sentence? We all know that Catholics disagree and do not follow every rule of the church, even priests have been known to say that the church is wrong and it ok to ignore the no contraception decree. The Mormon Church, however does not broker disagreement and punishes transgressors. No matter how scrubbed and benign those pie faced “missionaries” are, the Mormon Church is a very strict and vengeful institution.

  269. olandp says:

    I thought it was. Sometimes coming from a family of teachers turns me into a crazy person. I am always a grammar Nazi, but have learned to suppress that impulse until the dike breaks.

  270. Tonnage says:

    Speaking of hateful and bitter. This article is ironic when you consider the definition of bigotry being “intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.”

    You paint with a broad brush. “The latest brilliant idea from the Mormons is to… urge the Mormons…” Would you write an article that says “the Catholics are urging the Catholics to do something hateful.” It’s sloppy writing. Do you understand their church or how it’s structured and how it’s members differ from it’s general leadership vs. local leadership, etc.?
    I’m not saying there isn’t a valuable perspective in this article, but your sloppy approach to what amounts to an enraged and ill thought out facebook post does not do credit to your perspective. Do your homework and try writing something that convinces people that aren’t already in the choir.

  271. nicho says:

    Voters took away civil right because the Mormon cult spent millions and millions of dollars spreading vicious and provable lies that misled gullible people. I wish I believed in hell because that’s where the Mormon cult belongs.

  272. nicho says:

    And when you express your hate in the public square, you can’t hide behind religious superstition. People are free to criticize you any way they see fit.

  273. discus_sucks_ass says:

    when I looked at the full view my first reaction was “why did someone make a church from Lego’s?”…

  274. SimmerDown says:

    Malcolm X vs. MLK who had the better approach? Since they are crazy we should be too?

    The gay community would be much better off if they didn’t look for a scapegoat (like this article does) and instead worked on public opinion within their communities. Public opinion is changing, but really the PUBLIC has been against providing common rights. It might seem crazy but the AVERAGE american still does not support this–that’s why it went to the supreme court. That’s why Obama was outed as a supporter by Biden. If the average voter did support this, then there would be nothing to talk about. Mormons did not create this attitude, Obama is not scared of the opinion supposedly created by Mormons. Shoot there is simply not enough of them.

    Mormon’s didn’t take away gay rights, voters did. Focus on changing hearts and minds–not trying to find villains and imagined causality. Voters are accountable. Why are voters against what seems common sense? Likely because they don’t know you or your story. Instead of showing up half naked with an “in your face” Gay Pride parade in a community show up looking like normal people wanting to be together. It might not be popular for gays, but it’s the better way to change voter’s minds. During the civil rights movement, blacks did not show up and mach in a provocative way, they showed up looking respectable and demanding respect. This cause is made into a joke every time someone with a costume shows up to a march–voters don’t connect with it.

  275. Typo, just fixed it. And I’ll go look for the video.

  276. Monoceros Forth says:

    For some time now I’ve harbored a belief, an ill-formed and perhaps rather silly belief to be sure, that you can judge something of the vitality and worth of a culture or community from the quality of its art. Vibrant and living cultures, cultures that really and truly nourish the human spirit in some way, produce rich and varied art. There is something sterile and lifeless about a culture that produces sterile and lifeless art. It’s one reason I simply cannot believe that American evangelical Christianity is anything other than a spiritual dead end. No people who really were in touch with the infinite would produce such dreadfully insipid and deadening art as you see in Bible-belt culture.

  277. Dave of the Jungle says:

    I wouldn’t cut them some slack because they are actively campaigning to hurt others, which isn’t exactly an example of cutting someone some slack.

  278. Indigo says:

    Thanks. But ouch! That’s a real eye-gouger!

  279. Monoceros Forth says:

    Mormons are smug in a way that offends the same sense of outrage that
    makes me shudder every time I see a white picket fence surrounding an
    over-done lawn or a grown man wearing carefully ironed and creased blue

    I know exactly how you feel. I’m reminded of when the big Mormon temple went up in San Diego, not far from the UCSD and right off I-5 so I could see it basically every day. And every day I’d look at that building and think, “That looks so fake.” Judge for yourself: There are many beautiful religious buildings in the world but that Mormon temple looks like an oversized toy somehow, as though it were molded out of white plastic for a model-train set.

  280. Monoceros Forth says:

    I don’t feel any particular need to be polite to racists either nor inclined to cut them any slack whatever.

  281. heimaey says:

    Because when someone tries to take away your rights, you tend to get a little angry.

  282. SimmerDown says:

    Wow you sure do hate Mormons. Every voice has a place in the public square, even the one that might seem crazy to you. Humanity has never been so open to gays as they are now on earth. I would cut some slack to those who have not caught up to where you want them to be.

  283. heimaey says:

    Mormons make the Catholics look like progressives (especially now).

  284. Indigo says:

    Mormons are smug in a way that offends the same sense of outrage that makes me shudder every time I see a white picket fence surrounding an over-done lawn or a grown man wearing carefully ironed and creased blue jeans. Why do they hate the natural order of life so completely? It’s a control issue, clearly, and one I’m not interested in confronting. Let them leap into a volcano, for all I care.

  285. Dave of the Jungle says:

    The Supreme Polygamist at Star Base Kolob knows all.

  286. Tornogal says:

    Great article. Thanks for writing it.

  287. olandp says:

    John, you said that Prop8 was passed in Hawaii, while the Mormons are very active in Hawaii (I think they are the largest land owner) Prop8 was California. It gets a bit confusing because they started their anti-Marriage Equality work in Hawaii.

    And I was hoping for a Mrs. Betty Bowers video

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