NPR whitewashes past of anti-gay Holocaust-revisionist hate group leader

National Public Radio’s Michel Martin did a segment on Uganda’s growing crackdown on its gay population, and decided to interview Holocaust-revisionist hate-group leader Scott Lively, who is truly one of the most horrific religious right extremists in America.

How did NPR’s Michel Martin describe Lively to her audience? Simply as “Evangelical leader Scott Lively.”

That’s it.

No mention of the fact that Lively was labeled a Holocaust revisionist by HateWatch for his “thoroughly-discredited” 1995 tome, “The Pink Swastika,” which tried to argue that gays were the really force behind the Holocaust.

No mention of Lively’s organization, Abiding Truth Ministries, that was officially-designated a “hate group” by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Scott Lively makes Tony Perkins look like a Boy Scout.  Scott Lively is not an “evangelical leader.”  He’s the far-right fringe of the anti-gay religious right.  The American Family Association is mainstream compared to Scott Lively.

If Scott Lively is simply an “evangelical leader,” then former KKK grand wizard David Duke is simply a “former GOP Senate candidate,” and Adolf Hitler was nothing more than “an aspiring artist.”

Look, I think it’s a bit odd that NPR would want to talk to Scott Lively about anything.  The man is beyond fringe.  But then again, the media interviews rapists, murders and homicidal dictators, so why not the most extreme fringes of America’s gay-hating religious right?  But you don’t whitewash your description of who you’re talking to, and completely mislead your audience into thinking this guy is simply some small-town minister who decided to take time off from saving the orphans in order to go on your show.

Michel Martin actually called the man “Pastor Lively.”


Let me share a few quotes from the man who NPR calls simply an “evangelical leader.”  You might have noticed that you didn’t hear about any of this on Michel Martin’s show either. Here’s “Pastor” Lively in his own words:

Because no matter what, [homosexuality] is still abnormal, wrong, harmful and perverse.”
– Eugene Register-Guard, Nov. 1, 1992

“There is no question that homosexuality figures prominently in the history of the Holocaust. … The first years of terrorism against the Jews were carried out by the homosexuals of the SA.”
– The Pink Swastika, 1996

gay hate group

Scott Lively

It is not mere coincidence that the emperors of Rome in its horrific final days were homosexual; that Adolf Hitler’s inner circle were mostly homosexual; and that nearly all of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history were homosexual. It is not mere coincidence that America’s cultural decline parallels the rise of ‘gay rights.’”
– “Agents of the Death Agenda,” May 1996 edition of Life Advocate magazine, quoted in “Northwest Update,” Coalition for Human Dignity, June 1996.

Homosexuality is thus biologically (and to varying degrees morally) equivalent to pedophilia, sado-masochism, bestiality and many other forms of deviant behavior.”
– “Deciphering ‘Gay’ Word-Speak and Language of Confusion,” May 2002

“Homosexuality is a personality disorder that involves various, often dangerous sexual addictions and aggressive, anti-social impulses.”
– “Letter to the Russian People,” 2007

“The gay movement is an evil institution [whose] goal is to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity in which there’s no restrictions on sexual conduct except the principle of mutual choice.”
– Conference in Kampala, Uganda, March 2009

We need to bring back public discussion of AIDS as a ‘gay’ disease, pederasty as [sic] major subculture of male homosexuality, mental health problems and domestic violence as major problems associated with lesbianism, the increasing recruitment of children into a homosexual identity through experimentation with ‘gay’ sex, etc. – all the truths we stopped telling because the other side screamed so loudly about them.”
– WorldNetDaily, September 2012

Nope, you didn’t hear any of that from NPR.

Note that while Lively is simply an “evangelical leader” who does “missions” in Africa, NPR’s Martin refers to Lively’s opposition as “activists.”  Ugandan human rights leader Frank Mugisha is simply a “Uganda activist” when Martin mentions him.  And when Martin mentions Ugandan human rights leader David Kato, she calls him a “gay activist leader,” a term I’ve never even heard of in over twenty years of doing national gay civil rights advocacy.  In fact, Kato is considered by many to be a father of Uganda’s gay civil rights movement.

NPR, intentionally or not, chose to channel the religious-right talking points on the gay civil rights debate.

We use to have this problem back in the mid-90s, when every gay rights advocate was a “gay activist,” while our opponents were “pastors and reverends and family values leaders” (suggesting that we don’t have family values).  And while most of the media has matured beyond the point of calling every civil rights leader an “activist” (Was MLK simply a “black activist”? No, he was a “civil rights leader.”) they remain reticent about using the correct terminology for far-right homophobes, and reticent about telling their audience the full truth about who they’re listening to.

Do you think it might be relevant for NPR’s audience to know, when listening to a show about gay rights in Uganda, that the man they’re listening to isn’t just someone who has “preached against homosexuality on many occasions,” but rather, he’s a controversial figure that runs an organization that is so anti-gay that one leading civil rights organization has labeled it a “hate group”?

I hear it’s Pledge Week at NPR.  Maybe they should pledge to start doing some actual journalism.

(I’m told that in order to better see my Facebook posts in your feed, you need to “follow” me.)

CyberDisobedience on Substack | @aravosis | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn. John Aravosis is the Executive Editor of AMERICAblog, which he founded in 2004. He has a joint law degree (JD) and masters in Foreign Service from Georgetown; and has worked in the US Senate, World Bank, Children's Defense Fund, the United Nations Development Programme, and as a stringer for the Economist. He is a frequent TV pundit, having appeared on the O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, World News Tonight, Nightline, AM Joy & Reliable Sources, among others. John lives in Washington, DC. .

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146 Responses to “NPR whitewashes past of anti-gay Holocaust-revisionist hate group leader”

  1. Nick says:

    The problem is, nobody outside of certain circles knows he’s anything other than evangelical leader. It’s evangelicals’ job to make sure people know what a monster he is, and they’re too busy donating money to him to denounce him.

  2. Butch1 says:

    ;-) He could very well be a pedophile, but I think it is more latent homosexual and hates that about himself.

    I also think that those obsessed with our sex life have a hidden desire to want to participate in it themselves, but hate that thought so much they have to try and destroy us so that we will not remind them of what they hate about themselves so much.

  3. 2karmanot says:

    Someday he’ll forget and leave his raincoat on the playground.

  4. Butch1 says:

    He should be interviewed by detectives or other forms of law enforcement.

  5. Butch1 says:

    Excellent post.

  6. kas says:

    National Public Radio’s Michel Martin doubles down in reaction to the reaction to her interview with Lively:

    Notice how she completely ignores the point of having whitewashed Lively’s past which so many listeners objected to. Understandable since it is clear as day and just as indefensible.

    For what it’s worth at least she’s on record smugly declaring she used “the same standard speaking” to the Ugandan LGBT rights activist Frank Mugisha when speaking with Pastor Scott Lively.

    What a relief: Where would we be if the persecutor wouldn’t get the same treatment as the persecuted.

  7. Kathy Verbiest Baldock says:

    This was in 2009 when not many people knew what he was doing. The interviewer did say he was Abiding Truth and author of Pink Swastika. I think the interviewer did a good job of interviewing him. No mistake about it — Lively is evil. His answers to measured questions show ever greater who he is.

  8. Taters says:

    I dropped McNeil Lehrer when they brought on Hugh Hewitt for “balance”. Jumped the shark.

  9. FLOYD says:


  10. arcadesproject says:

    Maybe the upper middle class never saw the NPR Hallmark Card with their institutional position on SS and Medicare on it. Old hand reaching out to young hand; rose in the background; text say resources should not be expended on old people because old people useless.

  11. arcadesproject says:

    Agreed. I suspect one of the motives behind emphasis on STEM and non-stop reassurances that a ‘community college’ is even better than a 4 year degree, is that the cons don’t want people to acquire the analytic tools the cons are using to control them.

  12. rose maryawn says:

    My Uncle Gabriel got a stunning blue Dodge
    Charger SRT8 from only workin part time on a home pc… hop over to here

  13. rose maryawn says:

    my Aunty Julia got silver Volkswagen Beetle
    Convertible by working parttime off of a home computer… Look At This

  14. Corey says:

    Things to remember: Koch Bros are in the NPR mix, some board, donations, etc and I just read Ugandas daughter came out as a lesbian. Don’t know if its true ofcourse, time will tell, but if it is “AKWARD!”

  15. EdA says:

    I’ve posted my objections to this puff piece on the interview’s web page:

    including the fact that Michel Martin KNEW from having interviewed this POS in 2009 what kind of creature he is.

    As an incidental note, Scott Lively also gained notoriety in 2011 for having installed a sexual predator as live-in manager of Lively’s coffee house catering to the needs of teen-age school drop-outs and truants. Nice guy … NOT

  16. pappyvet says:

    Thanks Bob !

  17. Bill_Perdue says:

    Thanks, I missed that one.

  18. Badgerite says:

    That would be my take on his statements. Not just anti gay rights. Anti civil right for a lot of people and most especially women.

  19. Drew2u says:

    Ha, funny thing is, I used to like DU until I made a post saying what’s the point of voting for a Democrat if their policies are the same as a Republican candidate and that if that were the case, a 3rd party option would be better. I got reprimanded for “not supporting Democrats” on the site. Never went back. (which is a shame since I loved the political cartoon daily compilations)

  20. BeatnikBob says:

    Best comment this side of this particular thread. Most excellent and wise. Pat on the back and please keep it up.

  21. BeatnikBob says:

    ‘Believe’. It’s the magic word that absolves ANY quote by ANY person of ANY responsibility to be correct, prescient or sane–and that goes for Democrats as well as religiously insane Republicans. If they ‘believe’ it, they RUN the quote.

  22. BeatnikBob says:

    “And we complain about Russia’s propaganda?” It’s all right there.

  23. BeatnikBob says:

    But their feel-good stories are the BEST!/snark

  24. BeatnikBob says:

    I’ve been saying it for the last several years: ‘Conservatives’ today have nearly perfected the art AND science of propaganda. They are following in Goebbels’ footsteps, and decades from now social scientists will be able to point to who was fooled, how and why–in collegiate textbooks.

    IF we’re lucky enough to HAVE an educational system by then…

  25. BeatnikBob says:

    That’s why I don’t listen to NPR any more. Too many crazies presented as the opposition or alternative viewpoint. And I mean CRAZY. Too many appearances by Tony Snow on Dianne Rehm, at least as often as John McCain appears on Sunday morning…

    These animals long ago proved who they were, but NPR wants playa status, so…that, and those sweet corporate dollars might stop rolling in, too.

  26. jomicur says:

    And one more for the list: Michigan based televangelist Rod Parsley, who a few years ago started a campaign to stop to alleged “gay agenda.” The name of his campaign was “Lock and Load,” which he insisted was not an implied threat of violence against gay people.

  27. Woondog says:

    I have seen no mention in the comments that Michel Martin’s Program, “Tell Me More” is singularly directed to the minority community. She has often conducted insightful interviews with leaders of the LGBT community, and the day before the Lively interview, her guest was Frank Mugisha, the Ugandan gay leader whose days on this earth are probably numbered. I have not heard Mr. Mugisha interviewed by any other broadcast media figure. (Rachel?) Nevertheless, to judge from descriptions of the Lively segment, which I didn’t hear, I’m sorry if she soft-balled him in any way.

  28. Russ says:

    I stopped listening to NPR back in 2003 when they went along with the Bush pro Iraq war agenda. Haven’t looked back.

  29. piniella says:

    It was bad enough when they interviewed neo-con war lover Danielle Pletka:

  30. 2karmanot says:

    Amen! :-)

  31. 2karmanot says:

    No, I suspect you don’t. Your beads have just been read.

  32. 2karmanot says:

    Old goats or kids?

  33. 2karmanot says:


  34. laundress88 says:

    Scott Lively shouldn’t be interviewed. He should be shot.

  35. Anonymous says:

    I for one appreciate the testimony from a firsthand source. Now we know it’s not just speculation on our part

  36. I have no idea what that means.

  37. juggared says:

    Republicans realized that without re-applying propaganda and taking aggressive measures to stifle independent thought, they will die as a party.

    hacking tools

  38. sandy shim says:

    it’s because you haven’t contributed that they have turned to corporations who are now dictating what is “balanced” news

  39. Dan Cobb says:

    It’s maddening that so many upper middle class people still listen to NPR -a right of center, George W. Bush-inspired broadcaster since 2002. I think people who still like NPR are a lot like people who still watch SNL…. they’re imagining what the programming was YEARS ago, and they’re oblivious to what the substance of the programming is today.

  40. Dan Cobb says:

    I haven’t contributed to NPR in YEARS… and I think that those who do, do so based on what NPR was before George Bush and Dick Cheney took appointment right-wing friendly leadership at NPR. Now the radio station is mostly fluff and often extreme in its right-wing approach to issues on the day.

  41. Anonymous says:

    I’ve lost all respect for the wealthy CEOS that own these corps. They just see us as consumers and believe they’re unequivocally more intelligent than the rest of society. One thing most people do have that CEOs lack is a soul. People care about the greater good which most CEOs don’t, and so will rebel against poisonous agendas.
    You really don’t need particular talent to be a CEO, just need the “killer instinct” to get to the top. And intelligence? Well you definitely don’t need to be Stephen Hawking. Look at these socialite heirs, their fathers are actually important people, but they were left with no brain. That’s genetic.

  42. Anonymous says:

    I agree with you but sadly, I have more to do on a weekday than fight against the “honest, hardworking Republican” trolls. Especially those who apparently do not work during 9-5 hours and have time to toll all day. Hmm, the “makers” sure are funny.
    But yeah, if you start putting down wingnut idiots, others join in until they realize they aren’t the moral “majority” they believe they are. At any given time, sensible people are willing to put these lunatics in their place, you just have to summon it.
    Also, another reason to vote in midterm elections – because sensible people actually ARE the majority…if they show up!

  43. ckg1 says:

    Then you hit back twice as hard. And if they don’t get the message, hit them AGAIN. Over and over, if you have to.

  44. Hue-Man says:

    I listen to CBC Radio Overnight’s re-broadcast of ABC (Australia) Asia Pacific program five days a week for news about Australia’s neighbors – Indonesia, PNG, Malaysia, China, Nauru, Cambodia, Japan, etc. – and Australia’s foreign policy stories (asylum seeker “detention”, Indonesian spying, etc.). These are stories that CBC should be covering but ignores, even from CBC Vancouver with its large Asian and South Asian listening and viewing population. (ABC used to have a full hour for the same show – public broadcasters’ budgets are being cut around the world and the outreach to other nations has gone silent, including CBC’s shutdown of RCI.)

    A second unrelated point that’s not been discussed here is a favorite of mine: the lack of LGBT coverage in the mainstream media. A “straight” NPR listener is unlikely to realize that there is a spectrum of christian “pastors” ranging from the openly gay Moderator of the United Church of Canada through the daily homophobia of American catholic cardinals right on down to the Westboro fanatics and finally to LIvely. Anyone who gives this indicted criminal air-time should place him in context as an accessory to the murder and imprisonment of thousands of LGBT people around the world; “Austrian painter” isn’t enough for the casual listener. Come to think of it, why not interview a lesbian or gay cleric instead?

  45. ronbo says:

    Thanks. I’m trying to piss off fewer people these days, though. I hate getting in flame wars with good individuals when I KNOW that we are on the same page 99% of the time. I don’t know if other individuals understand furious snark.

    I take pride in being banned from posting at apologist sites like Bob Cesca or Democratic Underground; but, I have to watch my tone here and at CrooksandLiars. They are liberal gold.

  46. Anonymous says:


  47. tiredofit says:

    Funny that you say he makes Tony Perkins look like a Boy Scout since the Boy Scouts still discriminate against gays and non-believers.

  48. Anonymous says:

    People with influence could “shut the whole thing down,” to quote a Republican. But they won’t. Money is the root of all evil. These people aren’t necessarily poisoning the minds of the little people; they are capitalizing on desperation that’s already there. They see a financial depression and they promise to solve it. So people throw money at them. It’s Hitler-esque.

  49. 2karmanot says:

    The most respectable sort of religious magical thinking to which one might aspire. Radcliffe? Now that is disappointing.

  50. Anonymous says:

    I’m with you. They haven’t provided good information in a long time. Putting turds like this in the pool makes the water dirty.

  51. Anonymous says:

    No point, as Republican trolls now police the comment section, and have installed their own vigilantism to make sure they’re dominant there.

  52. Anonymous says:

    Sure NPR, let’s ignore the funding he has done for his Anti-Gay Fantasy Camps overseas. By that I mean his “Kill All the Gays” bills. Let’s not even dignify his efforts as “political;” he’s living in a country where there are many freedoms but also advocating taking those freedoms away overseas. This is what a traitor and a hater of America looks like. He doesn’t want to give others the freedoms that we Americans enjoy.

    But hey, I guess as long as he gave you a fat wad of cash, you don’t mind…because you’re NPR. You now have to receive money from Republican schlongs who cut off your bi-partisan funding. You’re now bought and paid for. I guess NPR is glad to be a part of the political prostitution game.

  53. 2karmanot says:

    Indeed, I’m just waiting to hear when Bruce Jenner Kardashian is going to make the change.

  54. Anonymous says:

    An equal-opportunity bigot. Why merely label him as anti-gay? It looks like he’s killing 2 birds with one stone here, blaming victims of DV as well as hating gays.

  55. Anonymous says:

    Saying “truthful information can be found on the Internet” is not a generalization. It doesn’t even imply that most sites are truthful. I agree with Beth’s point, that NPR is just one source of information whereas the Internet has many options.

  56. 2karmanot says:

    Reading your beads is a good start.

  57. Anonymous says:

    Either that or selective reasoning and “facts” that are edited and revised until it they are distorted into lies. Example: “From what I understand from doctors, there are ways of shutting that whole thing down.”

  58. 2karmanot says:

    Yep. Poor old PBS, now depends on one month of ‘Downton Shabby’ to carry the other 11 months of re-runs and schlock. And, dear god, some of those Lawrence Welk shows are so old they look like moving, sepia toned Daguerreotypes.

  59. Anonymous says:

    NPR are simply worthless now that they’ve been muzzled. Climate change, environmentalism, atheism etc. have become popular in a free-thinking society. Republicans realized that without re-applying propaganda and taking aggressive measures to stifle independent thought, they will die as a party.

  60. Anonymous says:

    Because if we were “fair fair,” not Republican fair, they wouldn’t stand a chance intellectually. So we have to avoid embarrassing them and causing them to resort to violence and insanity. It’s like North Korea threatening us with nukes. We know they’re evil, superstitious and destructive but we just can’t defuse them easily.

  61. 2karmanot says:

    Thank you.

  62. Anonymous says:


  63. Anonymous says:

    The Republican muzzle has gotten them. Similar to the Kremlin.

  64. pdxblueyes says:

    And don’t forget his association with the Oregon Citizens Alliance – for which he was genreal Counsel – and for which he was successfully sued for assaulting a lesbian journalist at an open meeting of the organization. He is NOT a man of God. He’s a freaking wack job

  65. Anonymous says:

    They’re afraid to rock the boat. They have no intellectual integrity anymore, ask no meaningful questions, and just invite the most sensationalist guests. Their comment section is unmoderated and routinely vandalized. Obviously they have bent over backwards for Republicans. Just another example of how things need to be censored and filtered by Republicans in this country. Really disgusting. And we complain about Russia’s propaganda?

  66. dcinsider says:

    Scott Lively is an Evangelical leader like Joseph Stalin was a popular Russian politician.

  67. ComradeRutherford says:

    I knew Obama would not be a Democrat from before the primaries, which is why I didn’t vote for him (or Hillary, another non-Democrat) and why I am not disappointed by Obama.

  68. BeminDC says:

    It was very sloppy. At what point (Fox and CNN are guilty too) do we stop putting up rabidly anti-gay commentators on the air like Scott Lively, Tony Perkins, etc. To this gay person it’s not different than asking a KKK leader or a rabid anti-Semite for “their views.”

  69. BeminDC says:

    Contact them — WAMU appreciated hearing from me — 202-885-1252

    Also, can contact the show directly:

  70. Ronald Ibach says:

    I just left a message about Martin on NPR’s facebook page. You might consider doing the same.

  71. ComradeRutherford says:

    NPR does stand for National Propaganda Radio, ever since the GOP threatened the CPB with dissolution if they didn’t start slanting their media outlets to the far right.

    If NPR were to identify Lively correctly, then the GOP in Congress would have cut off all funding.

  72. Max_1 says:

    This is where the vote down count would provide the user the ability to understand the negative vibes he sends out…

  73. Max_1 says:

    (N)ice (P)olite (R)epublicans

  74. BeccaM says:

    Many folks confuse NPR with the Public Broadcast System (PBS), which a long time ago used to receive a significant portion of its budget from gov’t grants and private donations — but that was back in the day when most of their daily programming consisted of educational programs.

    Then the conservatives had their way and the budgets were cut to the bone, and then the bone was cut… and into the void came the ‘foundations’, barely concealed fronts for corporate interests. Then came the corporations themselves, not bothering to hide.

    As I’ve remarked many times, I knew NPR was done with any pretense of neutrality when they not only came out in favor of the Iraq war, they also were enthusiastic apologists for the torture of prisoners under the Bush regime.

  75. 2karmanot says:

    In California we get Cable Channel 60 ‘World View’ international news—-what an eye opener. It makes MSNBC look like the Birch Society.

  76. 2karmanot says:

    Satanist works

  77. 2karmanot says:


  78. 2karmanot says:

    Goebbels seemed like such a nice man and his ideas about gays, Jews, the disabled, and a myriad of others was so informative and really changed peoples minds about discrimination and genocide. #snark/contempt

  79. 2karmanot says:

    For Christ’s sake ronbo, don’t apologize and be sorry—-that’s so NPR. Personally, I totally relate to your ‘rilled up.” :-)

  80. 2karmanot says:

    Exactly so!

  81. 2karmanot says:

    One little problem with your adoration of propaganda: “we’re entering the second decade of a right-wing groupthink that the mainstream media is out to get them”.
    The mainstream media is a right-wing group-think.

  82. 2karmanot says:


  83. 2karmanot says:

    You are being rude and bordering on troll spamming. You owe Beth an apology.

  84. GarySFBCN says:

    I’ve always hated NPR. I know that I’m in the minority on this, but just WTF did you all expect? A hard-hitting interview on NPR? Seriously? A raised voice? That would disrupt the ‘carpe diem’ OM-like production values.

  85. slarti_bartfast says:

    You made a dumb generalization, I responded with an utterly obvious statement. Seems like the right response to me.

  86. Beth Myers says:

    Gee, I had no idea at all, thanks so much for this important information!

  87. Instead it was filled with repeated descriptions of who he really is. If you can look at that transcript and think it fails to make clear his agenda then I don’t know what you’re reading.

  88. Naja pallida says:

    This is just an other example of how the media doesn’t seem to care when it comes to making valid counterpoints, as long as the sensationalism sells. They’re happy to present a complete lie, and pretend it is the valid counterpoint to reality, because that is how our political debates work now. The opposition to reality no longer has to have anything to back up their reasoning, as long as they scream and cry loud enough.

  89. ronbo says:

    Sorry for appearing “riled up”. It’s just kinda my writing style. Sorry for being harsh. I’ve seen Democrats and Liberals shift to the right the past thirty years to the point where NeoLiberals are actually Republicans from the 1980’s. Acceptance of this tiny, tiny shift at NPR is just another brick in the Republican wall.

  90. Karey Jean Smith says:

    A tiny fraction of NPR’s funding comes from public money.

  91. pappyvet says:

    Here here

  92. pappyvet says:

    Uh huh. Even if what this lunatic said was true and it is not , it would do nothing but raise a giant humbug in the history of humans. Our sexuality is but a small portion of the total package.

    Is it really necessary to list the volumes of atrocities committed by heterosexuals?
    This man wears his hatred openly and proudly. I would not care what his particular sexual preference was , the level of hatred and cruelty in his heart shows more of a kinship with MeinKampf than the Bible.

  93. nicho says:

    it just wasn’t the condemnation of Lively you would like it to be

    Who wanted a “condemnation.” A simple statement of who he really is was all that was necessary. There’s no need for judgement, but there is a need to clearly identify him and his agenda for listeners so they can apply critical thinking to what he said. Should they, for example, describe Hitler as “a former German politician?”

  94. CA_2013 says:

    Could Martin have been tougher? Absolutely. But the vast majority of NPR listeners aren’t going to have much patience for Lively or his views. I’m finding it a bit hard to get riled up about NPR’s handling of this.

  95. nicho says:

    Yes, but at least while you’re reading, you can skim, turn the page, abandon a web site altogether, reread or reread again. Radio and TV are linear, you have to sit there and listen or watch. and they can subtly weave the propaganda in and you can’t go back and say “Wait, what did they just say?” as you can with a book or on a web site. The information, misinformation, or disinformation has entered your brain. It’s really hard to sort it out later. Also, a lot of people, especially if they’re driving or doing housework, are only half listening, and the disinformation is subliminal. The propagandists know this.

    I remember clearly when the Bush criminal gang decided to use military tribunals for accused terrorists in Gitmo. There was a backlash against that, so they decided to rebrand them as “terror tribunals.” Later that day, I was trapped in a place that had Fox Noise on the TV. I noticed that they had the words “terror tribunals” in the little crawl on the bottom of the screen. It repeated at least once a minute. Most of the people there weren’t really watching, but you know that “terror tribunal” was firmly implanted in their brains by the time they left.

  96. nicho says:

    “Fascist” will do.

  97. Bill_Perdue says:

    The left has covered these bigoted thugs, including Lively, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Obama BBFs Rick Warren and Donnie McClurkin.

    Lively is a genuine fascist. He wants us murdered and if it works in African countries he’ll try to import it to the US.

    Robertson practically has his own bigoted version of the State Dept and intervenes in the affairs of other nations. There are no attempts by the DoJ to stop him.

    Swaggart is famous for his kill the gays remark.

    Obama BF Warren intervened in Uganda but backed off when state sanctioned murder was threatened.

    Donnie McClurkin spends a lot of time in the RSA saying that gays can be ‘cured’. “Corrective rape is a hate crime wielded to convert lesbians to heterosexuality – an attempt to ‘cure’ them of being gay. The term was coined in South Africa in the early 2000s when charity workers first noticed an influx of such attacks. But despite recognition and international coverage, corrective rape in the region is escalating in severity…”–aimed-at-curing-lesbians-9033224.html

    All of these thugs should be arrested and prosecuted for crimes against humanity, but the Obama DoJ won’t do that.

  98. Indigo says:

    All you have to tell me is “evangelical leader” and the rest of the story of hate and vulgarity fall into place by themselves.

  99. Indigo says:

    That was my take.

  100. ronbo says:

    Yes, a multiple-front attack is best. We agree on that. But giving these repulsive individuals the stage merely gives them the spotlight. Review Fred Phelps – who was initially targeted in the media by the group ACT-UP. His media microphone was revoked and he is now seen as a kook.. The world only accepts these stooges when they are given the microphone. Cut the mic and they are removed from power.

    Review the history of gay rights. It was won in the streets by drag queens and ACT-UP. HRC, the corporate funded entity, worked appeasement for decades and is still unable to list a single national legal accomplishment. In fact, HRC is on record as opposing the confrontation that brought the issue of equal rights into the media spotlight.

    The lesson, gain the media spotlight and you control the message.

  101. LiveFreeOrWatchTV says:

    Let’s see, the NPR is headed by a GOP apparatchik and right-wing stink tank alumnus, and its programming is funded by wingnuts like the Koch brothers and John Arnold, who have editorial control. So we get Fox without (as much) screaming, and funded by your tax dollars. I LOVE MY FREEDOM.

  102. slarti_bartfast says:

    You can find a whole lot of complete crap there too. There is no place you can go to get information that does not require critical thinking on your part.

  103. Houndentenor says:

    I realize that. At the same time I have a hard time believing that the poeple watching Andrea Mitchell care more about Justin Bieber than they do about political news. I have another take on this: I used to believe that the media execs thought we were all stupid. I have since realized that they are vapid and shallow and can’t imagine the rest of us aren’t equally so.

  104. You think that coming out swinging at this guy would have more effective impact with those people who share his views already? I disagree; we’re entering the second decade of a right-wing groupthink that the mainstream media is out to get them. Opening up with finger-pointing just lets them write everything off as an inaccurate selectively-edited hit piece.

    You can ignore him but he’s still there and the Ugandan parliament is listening to him. You can attack him and his allies just write you off without listening. Or you can put him on the air to talk about what’s being reaped from that which he sows and let people hear it for themselves. The last thing is actual news-reporting journalism and goes way farther in getting the ear and minds of anyone who CAN be reached than a fire & brimstone condemnation ever will.

  105. I would agree if I thought this piece reflected that. But from the introduction:

    He’s traveled to Africa many times as a missionary. He ‘s preached against homosexuality on many occasions. In 2009, he addressed the Ugandan Parliament. And activists like Frank Mugisha believe that Pastor Lively’s message was a major factor in the new law. Scott Lively joins us now. He’s the president of Defend the Family International and author of “Redeeming the Rainbow: A Christian Response to the Gay Agenda.”

    from the second question, after Lively says he thinks this legislation goes too far:

    Have you said that to the people with whom you have relationships there? I know that you’ve traveled to the country several times and, as we said, you’ve addressed the parliament previously and there you have relationships with members of the parliament. Have you expressed your views?

    The third question talks about all the other bad things going on in real human rights abuses and asks why the focus on homosexuality. The fourth says the UN has denounced this and calls polite bullshit on the idea that it’s all gay bullies pushing people around.

  106. 2patricius2 says:

    Oh my goodness! I was going through greeting cards I got from a friend 40 years ago and found a $2 bill that he sent me! Was that because both of us are gay? (Actually, I think the saying is “as queer as a $3 bill.” But you don’t find many $2 bills anymore anyway.) :-)

  107. Drew2u says:

    I understand what you’re saying, but if all news is going to do is be the mouthpiece for psychopaths like this guy without ever calling them out on it, then what’s the point? All that’s been done is to give free advertisement to that person and their insane point of view.
    It’s like CNN bringing on Tony Perkins, letting him speak, then thanking him for his time without ever counterpointing or letting the audience know about his actual history, not just what’s been pre-approved by Perkins.
    It’s like the “free market” or voting: both are only able to function at maximum quality when the public is informed and educated. As it is, the Market abhors the public knowing about sweatshops, pollution, and habitat destruction, therefore the Market is not “free”. Lawmakers hate the public knowing where they are getting money and services; ALEC is a prime example, therefore voting is not really “informed”.
    The same is with Tony Perkins and Scott Lively. Sunlight is only shone on them when it is reported about their past activities. As John pointed out, leaving out everything horrible that they have done is not sunlight, it’s whitewashing and muddying the knowledge given to readers and listeners. And, in my opinion, not calling them out on their activities is aiding criminals.

  108. The piece is about the legislation, not Lively, so of course there’s going to be a limit to how much about him gets covered. But the introduction very clearly spells out what Lively has done and that he’s authored a book about his negative positions on gay rights. The very second question mentions that he’s spoken multiple times in Uganda to the Parliament and that he has relationships with people there. None of which jibes with your claim that they’ve whitewashed him into some average-joe preacher.

    This wasn’t sloppy, it just wasn’t the condemnation of Lively you would like it to be. But it’s not meant to be a profile or a hit piece; it was about the legislation that Lively helped create the environment for. And it did a good job of letting Lively himself say the sort of crap he believes and paint a clear picture of the result you get from that sort of hate speech. In doing so it was far more effective at marginalizing this guy than a pointed finger and a “j’accuse!”

  109. JoseAmerica says:

    It’d be nice if NPR would defend *itself* from those attacks too. Instead of rolling over and begging for forgiveness as they always do.

    NPR’s programming is fine. Its news is worse than worthless.

  110. Because he has an audience and an impact already? I suppose it’s just a reflection of my strong belief that sunlight is the best disinfectant, but I don’t see any value in pretending these people don’t exist and are being listened to by others.

    To my mind it’s far more effective to let this clown hang himself on the radio by letting him say gee, no, we wanted them to criminalize homosexuality and throw people in jail for saying people should be equal but we didn’t want them -executed- hoo boy! You can have him on once and harangue him or you can keep bringing him back and letting him air his odious nonsense for people to hear it.

    I know my overall calm would be better if I never heard people like this but the reality is that they represent a group that is only barely the minority now. This isn’t giving legitimacy to some 0.01% climate denier; this is someone who has a viewpoint in common with as much as 60%+ of the over 65 crowd. If we don’t keep them in the public eye we let them fester under the carpet.

    This article clearly believes we should be limiting this sort of person’s exposure to the occasion “this guy is still out there and here’s what he’s saying” piece. I can understand the position but I don’t agree. I think it’s far better to let this attention-hound rattle his crap off for everyone to hear it. We cannot unring the bell with regards to the effect he has on Uganda, so either we “tell” people about what he did or we “show” by letting him say it where people can hear it along side the reporting of what it has caused.

  111. Beth Myers says:

    NPR lost me in the runup to the Iraq war, when they let obvious liars spout propaganda unopposed. I stopped screaming at the radio, and just turned it off. Haven’t been back. I hear there is an interenet somewhere, where actual truthful information can be found. Must take a look…..

  112. perljammer says:

    It isn’t what new executives think we want to see; it’s what they *know* we want to see based on the data. Individual preferences have no influence at all, and groups outside the target demographic of the advertisers are given little consideration. It is what it is largely because what it is sells the most soap, and it’s been that way for quite a while.

  113. ronbo says:

    To YOU Lively doesn’t come across well. Listen to him through the ears of the 100,000,000+ persons who agree with his hate for all things gay and liberal.

    The liberal “mistake” is that we process information from both sides AND assume that conservatives to do the same. But that’s not how it works for conservatives. Ask those same conservatives to understand carbon dating and they will swear it’s a lie because the earth is only 7,000 years old.

    Don’t project YOUR fairness and logic upon conservatives; it’s the liberal Achilles heel.

  114. AnthonyLook says:

    NPR has changed since the Bush Administration.

  115. Silver_Witch says:

    Is it possible that to Michel that a Pastor (of an evangelical church) is the same as a hate monger – I know that is what it means to me.

  116. BeccaM says:

    So… No mention either how in 2009, Scott Lively was among a group of evangelical activists which included Don Schmierer and Caleb Brundidge, who went to Kampala, Uganda to give a series of talks full of lies about homosexuality, directly resulting in a bill that, as originally drafted, was the prototypical ‘kill the gays’ law?

    A bill where Lively said his only objection was the death penalty, but he was totally fine with life imprisonment for gays and lesbians?

    Nor how a year ago he was sued in U.S. federal court by Sexual Minorities Uganda for inciting the persecution of gay men and women? A case that is still pending, despite Lively’s failed attempts to have it dismissed?

  117. ronbo says:

    True, they move the goal-line away from truth towards their big-oil sponsors. I am more harsh on those that I should be able to trust. because I feel cheated. I EXPECT CNN, CBS, etc… to deceive, not NPR. Just like I’m more disappointed by Obama’s deception than Bush, whom I expect deception. Is that wrong?

  118. cole3244 says:

    npr caved into the popular msm take the easy way out way and lost me years ago in doing that.

  119. ronbo says:

    I always start listening to NPR on the way to work, but I switch channels when deceptive information is presented. I rarely am listening to NPR as I drive into the parking lot. (OK, OK, sometimes it’s the looong over-playing of bagpipes and irritating music. AND, I’ve been hooked on Marianne Faithfull’s Broken English for over 30 years now.)

  120. noamsane says:

    Odd opinions from a known goat-blower.

  121. dcinsider says:

    Great catch John thanks.

  122. ronbo says:

    We truly need a universal for these un-religious, un-godly, hateful religious leaders; something the mainstream media can utilize.. KKKristian is just too specific.

  123. jomicur says:

    Off-topic but definitely related story in the news today:

    The World Bank has put a $90 million loan to Uganda on hold because of the anti-gay law:

    I daresay Uganda will soon be having buyer’s remorse over listening to Scott Deadly (if they’re not already).

  124. Anthony_McCarthy says:

    NPR is the fraudulent alternative that is as bad and sometimes worse than what it’s the alleged alternative to. They should be cut off, their affiliates should have their licenses challenged for carrying them. They waste their budgets on NPR crap and discontinue local and state news to do so. NPR should be destroyed because it is a total fraud.

  125. ronbo says:

    I expect NPR to vet AND report the truthful background of your CHOSEN guests. Scott Lively, given voice on “Tell Me More”, has an easily discovered background as an outspoken and official hate-group founder and anti-gay extreme activist. His calling for anti-gay laws and assisting in the legalization of death penalties both at home and abroad, should disqualify such an individual from speaking propaganda on a national forum… especially without even a basic background description as … holocaust revisioner,

    Scott Lively’s on-air description of “Evangelical leader” by Michel Martin failed to acknowledge his primary anti-gay activities. It’s the equivalent as identifying Josef Mengele as a “physician”. Both men have been recognized for actual activities related to persecution and deaths of individuals. One works for death-penalty laws for homosexuals and the other worked for scientific “research”.

    I am more than simply concerned with this selective and repugnant deletion of historical facts at NPR and believe that a campaign to correct both this action and NPR’s deceptive practices MUST be addressed in a public forum.

    I anticipate an immediate and repetitive on-air apology for this intentional deception. In addition, for NPR to employ Michel Martin, whose studied deceptive journalistic practices mislead and deceive, requires a campaign calling for the exposure of all NPR’s journalistic errors which will potentially reduce public contributions.

    Intentional deception is NOT the duty of NPR and must be addressed immediately.

  126. Houndentenor says:

    We don’t cover foreign news unless it directly affects American (business) interests (usually oil). We just don’t. I have an online friend (never met, but chatted frequently for over a decade) in Sydney who asked me if I thought the handling of the refugee crisis by the Australian government was going to affect tourism. I only know of this because of his tweets and retweets on this topic. I have not heard a word of this in the American press. (Maybe it was there and I missed it?) So, no, it will not affect American travel to Australia because hardly anyone here has any idea what goes on there. Meanwhile when I lived in Europe their news was filled with international stories from all continents. But then when msnbc cuts off a Congressional Committee chair to cut to Justin Bieber’s perp walk, you get a sense of just what our news executives think we want to see. (As if people wanting the latest Bieber news wouldn’t have been watching E!, not msnbc???)

  127. gratuitous says:

    Well, I don’t know if Scott is gay or straight (much less care), but yeah, Oregonians of a certain vintage are very familiar with Mr. Lively and his brand of bigotry. I only wish he had had the same good judgment as his running buddy Lon Mabon to disappear quietly from the scene.

    Time to gear up again, I guess, now that NPR is providing Scott a platform and lending him credibility and exposure by having him on. Thanks bunches, Ms. Martin.

  128. I meant on this piece. Anyone who reads this blog knows how we feel about NPR. You’d be hard pressed to find any of us, I think, who don’t generally respect NPR and defend it against conservative attacks.

  129. No, I still love NPR. But I think this was sloppy. If you’re going to have someone like Lively on, you have to describe him accurately. It’s not enough to ask him a few tough questions when your listeners have no idea who the guest really is. If anything, Lively downplayed it during the interview, made himself sound even more reasonable, so it would be understandable for listeners to think he was just your typical church leader who, like many church leaders, doesn’t think being gay is okay. They wouldn’t know that the man is the fringe of the fringe, they wouldn’t assume that he’s said the kinds of things about gay people that he has said. And I think the listeners would have been far more skeptical of Lively’s “moderate” tone had they known the full story about him.

  130. ronbo says:

    Such a mild rebuke. Even wikipedia describes the psychopath in a much, much harsher light.

  131. Houndentenor says:

    They are better than most, but the media trend towards shallowness and vapidity has invaded every crack and crevice of our media landscape. Hardly anyone does even the most basic fact-checking any more.

  132. CA_2013 says:

    Agree. I read the transcript and Lively doesn’t come across well. How could he with his views and actions? Martin could have pushed him more though.

  133. Houndentenor says:

    This is easy. Liberals bend over backwards to be fair to right-wingers. Decades of claims of media bias have led liberals (who actually care about things like fairness) to treat even the most heinous bigots as if they had a valid point of view. You don’t have to watch much Fox News or listen to much talk radio to see that this attitude is not reciprocal.

  134. Drew2u says:

    Sort of like how NOVA on PBS is funded by the Koch Bros?

  135. Buford2k11 says:

    NPR is no longer the “peoples'” radio…

  136. Badgerite says:

    Oh My God! Did that horrible little man say that lesbianism is a cause of domestic violence?
    Yes, I believe he did. (Last of the four quotes)
    So, if a man beats a woman, it is either the fault of the woman (because she is probably a lesbian) or the fault of the family down the street with two moms.
    And this would be his idea of “one of the TRUTHS we stopped telling because the other side screamed so loudly about them.” Go figure.

    And Hitler in his early years did indeed take all comers. All you needed was to be was filled with hate as he was, and a brutal streak. He did find those qualities in Ernst Rohm, who was an early leader of the Death’s Head organization. But he and many of his people were later killed by Hitler in a purge.
    But it hardly matters. I would certainly not like to be compared to Charles Manson, or Goebels or Himmler, or Ted Bundy or any number of heterosexual people who were utterly depraved ( not the least of whom was Hitler, Stalin or his KGB head, Beria, Mussolini or Pol Pot or the 29 men convicted by trial in the Hague of genocide in Ruwanda, ) because I shared one trait in common with them. And one trait that has nothing to do with morality one way or the other.

    Truthiness appears to be back.

  137. Drew2u says:

    But why have the guy who started the incitement to kill gays on when a non-religious human rights spokesperson/historian, who doesn’t have a personal stake in Uganda, would be more effective and give a 3rd-party objective view?

  138. Drew2u says:

    I don’t know about that. Every time I think about donating, they put programs like this one on, or one where they bring on a spokesperson with stakes in getting the KXL passed, etc.

  139. Drew2u says:

    It’s slowly happening, but Uganda and Africa are largely ignored by mainstream news outlets.

  140. nicho says:

    provide real news and information to millions.

    Thanks for the laugh. It made my day.

  141. Jeanne says:

    Totally agree that NPR needs to address this and that this is unacceptable. But to suggest that NPR needs to “start doing some real journalism” is to be totally ignorant to the good work they do every day to provide real news and information to millions. Let’s be critical without being hyperbolic.

  142. I’m as pro-equality as they come but I don’t see how you read the transcript of that piece and feel like they’re at all whitewashing this bigot’s position. They give him the rope and he hangs himself with it, going so far as to excuse this lawmaking as an understandable result of white male homosexuals meddling in sovereign affairs. As public opinion turns more and more in our favor on equality THIS is exactly what we need – these loons speaking their hateful minds where people can hear them and realize what that side stands for. Drawing little horns on their pictures isn’t going to accomplish a fraction of what they will with their own froth.

  143. kevinbenett says:

    This man is as gay as a $2 bill, nobody can embody such hatred, he cannot deal with the fact he’s gay. He left Oregon after the antigay measure here failed. He’s sick and not because he’s gay.

  144. caphillprof says:

    PBS has become a fascist operation.

  145. No surprise there, in fact the Left has pretty much not covered how radical pastors are going to Africa and pushing anti gay laws. I have heard of this guy before.

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